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[Kiir] okay guys channel is moderated for about 10 mins so i can explain everything
[Tchrin] Go Kiir
[Kiir] Welcome to our 2nd World of Warcraft Discussion, unfortunately Blizzard
couldn't join us tonight so instead we will be discussing 5 questiosn amoungst
all of you.
[Kiir] The way that the discussion will work is I will post a discussion question
and then unmoderate the room, you will all have about 10 minutes to discuss the
question and then we will move onto the next question.
[Kiir] The people with the @ by their name will be helping me to direct the conversation
and make sure that no trouble is caused.
[Kiir] Now onto our first question
[Kiir] Do you think that skills such as riding, running, swimming and such or
will be important in the game? For example: the higher your riding the more different
types of mounts you may ride, the higher your running the faster you run and such.
[Kiir] and discuss
[Kalukoo] Hmm
[Ballrog-Ganker] ug..
[[A-X]whatisamage] hmm
[Mithril] no devs
[Nonuss] yes =-p
[Vehementi] Ballrog-Ganker: quite.
[Beekeeper] running - no
[Kalukoo] yea it gives people a reason to train that skill
[Kheldon] I agree with that.
[Nonuss] i say yes
[dewinter] yes, emersion is half of what makes a game great
[Kensi] mmhmm
[CodeTriCk] Poor.. no devs.. so thanks for telling us... and wasting our time.
[Nonuss] thats kinda like the AO system
[Rob_San] No, that's a bad idea i think.
[Nonuss] i like how the AO system is
[Silhouette] Riding, not running and swimming
[Ubiytza[Combine]] It would be nice if we didn't have to spec a Running skill
as taht is a basic ability all should be able to have?
[Ballrog-Ganker] quiet you mean ?
[Kalukoo] Why would you train it if it didnt give advantages so of course.
[[A-X]whatisamage] I think riding would be good
[ryme] i dont think those kind of skills should exist in the game at all, makes
everything so complicated :)
[RJO] I think they should ... realism to the point where it doesn't drive you
nuts is a good thing :)
[Kenolil-DV] Swimming I think would be good, because it's not always necessary
to swim
[Tchrin] I think different forms of transportation are important...but you have
to be careful not to make the travelling around too easily otherwise you get UO
style @It's a small world' effect
[Silhouette] No running and swimming IMHO, that would suck
[[A-X]whatisamage] HORSE is a BIG part of MMORPG's imho...
[MiniDee] Riding skill is essential. And the way, that if you wanna ride, you
gotta have to give up on something. So horses don't become essentiality, like
in UO
[Tsudymtae] Definately, running, swimming, and acrobatics like morrowind
[CnCG0D] yea who would wanna spend hours of lvling to "swim"
[Silhouette] The World of Warcraft Is Not Big
[Ubiytza[Combine]] riding maybe an optional one...maybe include extra benefits
like being able to charge, do tricky riding, be able to pick stuff off the ground
etc if your riding skill is high?
[Kalukoo] Silhouette no running and swimming??
[[A-X]whatisamage] and a horse that youself control of course
[dezful] this chat SUCKS
[Silhouette] The World of Warcraft Is Not SMall*
[tetris] running and swimming are skills that nearly everyone should possess
[Kalukoo] yea ubiytza
[Mattt] I think it would add a lot to the game. Like say you run around a lot,
why not reward your running around by making you faster at running?
[Kheldon] running and swimming skill wouldnt be nice..but to control and ride
mounts..ther should be skill for those
[Tchrin] Neither Is UO's small though
[Silhouette] And should not be any different than others
[Aludian] swimming I believe is a very important skill to have. I am sure it would
be highly usable because from the screens I have seen it looks like there are
vast oceans and rivers/streams
[Kalukoo] definatly Lets have knights and shit with charge :D
[Wolfgang] other games have jumping, running, swimming skills and they come in
handy. Very usefull skills. I think a riding skill would be extremely usefull
[Vehementi] Is the question whether or not they WILL be important to the game,
or whether they should be included in the game? The question was improperly worded
[Beekeeper] I think that riding a gryphon would be a great idea :)
[[A-X]whatisamage] instead of swimming boats are much cooler...
[Silhouette] How about a general skill for all transports
[Mattt] Swimming would be very exciting if there are underwater areas to explore.
[RJO] how importent you think they will be and should be?
[Kalukoo] they WILL be important vehem
[Ubiytza[Combine]] I believe AO's system was nice in the way you trained your
swimming skill, and you got self buffs depending on class to boost speed, but
all of you ran at the same speed over all
[Kensi] You can ride in DAoC Just you can't really control the horse, it runs
in a set path
[Kalukoo] Yea but AO was gay
[andoleus] ok, in asheronscall ther is a recalling skill, IT SUCKS FOR PVP CAN
YOU NOT HAVE THAT!!!!!
[Kalukoo] you got a car and barly went faster then normal
[Kalukoo] it was stupid
[Ubiytza[Combine]] Plz don't make it so 1 or 2 classes have speed skills and others
do not, that makes it imbalanced ALA Daoc...
[[A-X]whatisamage] But really who wanna train hours just for transportation?
[Vehementi] Well, in that case, of course they'll be important. If they weren't
important, they simply wouldn't be in the game in thef irst place. Why is this
a question? :)
[Ballrog-Ganker] lol combine
[Tchrin] Agreed Kaluko, but if it went really fast it'd really unbalance the game
[Remfin] isn't the whole point a transportation skill would automatically raise?
:P
[Set-AFK] If they have an animal taming skill in WoW, i think your skill in riding
should be tied to that somewhow rather than it being its own skill
[Kalukoo] yea vehem thats what i said at the start
[Ubiytza[Combine]] I want godamn horses
[Kenolil-DV] I think a lot of people would spend hours to save hours
[RJO] aye it would have to auto raise....
[Ubiytza[Combine]] Yalmaha's are cool, and daoc needs player driven mounts
[Mattt] You don't have to train for hours for transportation. it's just that maybe
the more you walk around,t he better you get at it.
[Talice] i wanna be able to ride a wolf
[Ballrog-Ganker] screw healing packs, make healing classes :P
[Talice] like the war3 raiders
[RJO] would have a low dificulty rating as far as skill gain goes
[Silhouette] Yes, id like to ride a Hippogryph
[Vehementi] Kalukoo, sorry, was busy figuring out what he meant :)
[Zo0f] this is a mess, i was expecting somehing rather more professional :/
[Ballrog-Ganker] food = healing = wierd pvp
[Kalukoo] Yes DAOC will be having Player mounts soon.... and houseing that was
promised AGES ago
[tetris] Ubiytza[Combine]: player driven mounts would be sweet
[Ubiytza[Combine]] rofl
[Ubiytza[Combine]] Kalu...
[Ubiytza[Combine]] never trust Mythic k? :)
[Kalukoo] =D
[Kenolil-DV] I think riding is a great idea
[Kensi] I think DAoC looks cool but I never got to actually play it
[Kalukoo] yea ubi :D
[Kensi] is it any good?
[Remfin] mythic = verant #2 =\
[Ubiytza[Combine]] Mythic is by far almost as bad as Funcom...
[Talice] I want to be able to ride wolves.. or horses, or panthers like huntress'
do
[[A-X]whatisamage] yes but thats quite unnessesary to get better on walking...
nope transportation skills aint nothing you should have...
[Ballrog-Ganker] Verant ] mythic
[Ubiytza[Combine]] and thats a harsh slap by me
[RJO] on topic lads
[Kalukoo] no mythic is a bit better then verant
[Ballrog-Ganker] Mythic ] none
[Vehementi] I think that blizzard is more competent than to include useless skills
in their first, high-budget MMORPG...
[Silhouette] yes, player Driven Mounts Like Gryphons, Hippogryphs and, Wyverns
would be cool
[Ubiytza[Combine]] Funcom ] all in stupidity
[Nonuss] mythic went beyond verant heh
[ryme] Talice thats a good idea yeah :)
[Aludian] Morrowind = kicking graphics
[Nonuss] funcom isnt bad
[RJO] off the companies and on to the skills
[Kalukoo] Yea silho flying mounts would be awsome
[Nonuss] AO is a pretty good game now
[Talice] word yes
[Ubiytza[Combine]] rofl Nonuss..
[Talice] gryphons would rock
[Kalukoo] Perhaps a mount training skill
[Ubiytza[Combine]] whats good?
[Silhouette] And ofcourse Horses
[CnCG0D] seriously ao is a lot better now
[Boeman] WOW should structure it so that at least a group of newbies have a chance
of killing a high-level player
[Nonuss] I play it every day
[Silhouette] And Wolves
[CnCG0D] I got a 175 beurocrat
[Kalukoo] where the higher your skill the better animal you could tame
[Nonuss] I have fun, and its a great game
[Kenolil-DV] but if you were good at riding a flying mount, why would you train
riding and swimming again?
[Kalukoo] yea
[Talic_Jetrpg] Yes i would have to say forget about the gimp skills and focus
on battle skills (speed songs however are nice)
[Aludian] what about trainging your own mount, you have to find/tame it
[Remfin] cause you can't fly in a cave?
[Remfin] =p
[Kalukoo] you wouldent keno
[Set-AFK] I dunno i think the people that made World War 2 online arent as smart
as the folks that made AO =P
[Kenolil-DV] um running and swimming
[Talice] I think some mounts should be race specific
[Ubiytza[Combine]] Ao has no pvp!
[Talice] like gryphons
[Ubiytza[Combine]] BRING PVP!
[tetris] Boeman that's a horrible idea. and off topic too :)
[Silhouette] Thats why there should be a general skill for all Mounts
[Kenolil-DV] lol, who says you can't fly in a cave?
[ryme] yeah plain normal old horses suck compared to wolves panthers etc
[Kalukoo] yea PVP! :D
[Nonuss] ao has some great graphics, and fun gameplay
[Kiwi-box] pvp!
[Ubiytza[Combine]] PVP!
[Talice] only dwarves with certain skills should be able to tame gryphons
[Ballrog-Ganker] GOOD PVP OR PVP SERVER
[CnCG0D] it has pvp just not balanced pvp
[Ubiytza[Combine]] i just killed some dude on daoc...
[Kalukoo] guys
[Nonuss] especially with the team missions
[Mattt] Guy's, we're not on PvP atm. :)
[Kalukoo] BACK TO TOPIC PLZX
[Kalukoo] =D
[Ubiytza[Combine]] stupid skald thought i was afk, anyway i was off topic
[Vehementi] Blizzard = company that appeals to the masses of normal gamers, who
happen to be carebears. If you really expect a good PVP system, you're dreaming.
[Ballrog-Ganker] PVP SERVER
[Kalukoo] ] Do you think that skills such as riding, running, swimming and such
or will be important in the game? For example: the higher your riding the more
different types of mounts you may ride, the higher your running the faster you
run and such.
[Ballrog-Ganker] lol
[Remfin] ya sc and war3 sure seem like carebear coop games to me
[Ubiytza[Combine]] i want a good hack and slash game
[[A-X]whatisamage] so true Vehementi
[Kalukoo] ] Do you think that skills such as riding, running, swimming and such
or will be important in the game? For example: the higher your riding the more
different types of mounts you may ride, the higher your running the faster you
run and such.
[Remfin] ...
[Ubiytza[Combine]] if WAr3 will be carebare, at lest make it good!
[Silhouette] Yes!
[Kiir] okay guys let's move onto the next question
[Kiir] Several MMOs have provided goal oriented pvp combat, such as Realm vs Realm
in DAoC and building Empires in Shadowbane, do you think this is a good form of
pvp for WoW?
[Racius] Yes.
[Kiir] there you go discuss pvp
[Talice] yes
[Ubiytza[Combine]] yes and no
[Kenolil-DV] Definitely
[Nonuss] no
[Ballrog-Ganker] YES
[Nonuss] not at all
[RJO] I think it is the best way to go
[CnCG0D] rvR is horrid
[Grkn] Yes
[ryme] yes :D
[Kat|RS|] yes
[[A-X]whatisamage] NO!
[Talice] I think it should be a part of it, it shouldn't be forced though
[Silhouette] Most Definately
[Kalukoo] yea
[Ballrog-Ganker] not rvr
[Ubiytza[Combine]] rvr is horrid
[Racius] There HAS to be a point to PvP or else there's no reason to
[Talic_Jetrpg] No i think Fightign will be important anot ride faster then a other
dude becuase u spent all ur skills in being a fruit
[tetris] no way
[Boeman] tetris: It prevents murderers from single-handidly murdering everyone
that simply passes his screen. That's a serious problem in UO right now. Even
a gang of newbies can't kill a single murderer
[Kalukoo] Team based combat is the best
[RJO] you need a purpose behind PvP so you can offset griefers
[Ubiytza[Combine]] FFA on pvp servers atm is kinda boring
[Silhouette] rvr is horrid
[[EToM]Belok] this is rediculou
[[EToM]Belok] s
[CnCG0D] I wanna be a PK
[Ubiytza[Combine]] team based pvp is fun
[Aludian] no, i dissagree
[Kalukoo] Perhaps a FFA PVP server is needed then
[CnCG0D] and kill everything that moves
[Ballrog-Ganker] guild based
[[A-X]whatisamage] PvP with loads of ppl fighting eachother on the same time sux
[Aind] zergs suck
[Silhouette] I agree
[Vehementi] Racius scores with the only possible logical answer! Next question.
[Ubiytza[Combine]] FFA PVP is boring!
[Kalukoo] No way
[Remfin] they should just do UO style control the towns pvp heh
[Set-AFK] yes, it draws more people into the PvP arena which makes it more fun
and reduces the amount of griefers you have
[Mattt] So what kind of goals do you guys think there should be in PvP then?
[Kalukoo] I remember in DAOC relic raid
[Kenolil-DV] First of all, you simply need a non forced PvP idea
[Aind] best kinda pvp is were some skill is invovled;
[Kalukoo] huge battles
[Remfin] so it doesn't affect non-combatants much
[Ubiytza[Combine]] team based pvp should get alot more rewards
[Racius] ahahaha Vehementi
[Silhouette] I agree Aind
[Kalukoo] Keno your wrong
[ryme] Ubiytza[Combine] yep
[Ballrog-Ganker] All out pvp :P
[Ubiytza[Combine]] if u can gank solo fine,.....but if u do it as a team, its
all the better
[Kalukoo] because AO did that keno
[Aind] i hate how team 1 with 10102931 people will beat team 2 with 1000 people
;/
[Ubiytza[Combine]] coordination, skills, friends etc.
[tetris] Boeman: why should a group of newbies be able to kill someone with 5x
the total of the group experiance? that's just stupid.
[Kalukoo] its fucked
[Guardian-GLB] Kalukoo. Please refrain from using profanity.
[Ubiytza[Combine]] Kaluuko
[RJO] there should be at the very least some sort of element that encourages PvP
with those interested in PvP and assocaited rewards
[Remfin] you mean like UO ubiytza?
[Ubiytza[Combine]] sorta Rem
[Ubiytza[Combine]] UO was diffrent FFA
[ryme] team based combat = ~10000x better than PvP where everyone kills eveyone
[Remfin] where you just all kill someone in 1 spell
[Remfin] :(
[CnCG0D] and I want a game without speech natzis!
[Ubiytza[Combine]] Daoc is a small world
[Talice] you shouldn't be forced to join a group to PK
[Ubiytza[Combine]] ppl get crammed
[Kenolil-DV] I never played AO, but DAoC's system is pretty good in my opinion,
except they simply never balanced the classes
[Vehementi] racius: at least you had to think longer than for the first question...
"will skills included in the game be useful?"
[Talice] you should have the option to, but you shouldn't HAVE to
[Aind] but i don't think that pvp should be based on who has the best fps ;/
[Aind] which isn't fair
[Dureal] Goal based has a deffinate advantage because it gives PvP a real purpose
other than racking up the kills. More to do other than preying on the unwary.
Places to defend and attack, objects that need to be protected or stolen.
[Kenolil-DV] if they did that, then that system is an excellent one to work off
of
[Aind] but shouldn't be based on zerg tatics
[Racius] hehe
[[A-X]whatisamage] haha nope ryme... It sucks with only ganking and such... you
dont have as much control then...
[Silhouette] I agree Dureal
[Ubiytza[Combine]] Kaluuko what is Blizzard doing about people zerging, can they
make levels/numbers less important as skills/coordination?
[Mattt] I think very good goals would be the capturing of land/towns. This gives
players a real sense of accomplishment and makes them want to strive for victory.
[Kenolil-DV] I doubt I'd play a purely PvE based game again
[Remfin] except if you do that when you get a lopsided team the server is ruined
[Silhouette] FFA PVP personally sucks
[Ubiytza[Combine]] agree
[Kheldon] nodnod Sil
[Talic_Jetrpg] I have a GOOD idea PvP butu have to turn a PvP flag on in Big Game
run Citys , that way u can choose not to PvP but also not gnak peopel becuase
of a immune pvp bug
[Ballrog-Ganker] so does rvr...
[Martyr] PVE?
[Nonuss] they cant do skills and coordination in an mmorpg because it wouldnt
be fair
[ryme] whatisamage read what i wrote more carefully
[Silhouette] PvE only games get lame real fast as well
[Nonuss] it would be nice if they did but they wont
[RJO] Rem - well players are known to change their side when things get unbalanced
[Choc|Felucca] k
[Martyr] waht PVE
[Kiir] pve = player vs enviorment
[[EToM]Belok] player vs environment
[Mattt] WoW will not be PvE only but it also isn't going to be totally PvP.
[Stormcaller[FoN]] World Of Starcraft - sounds fun
[Kenolil-DV] see, the problem is you have to take out that damned running skill
if you decide to go with a PvP system
[zepH-] who cares about pve
[Ballrog-Ganker] so make pvp servers
[Ballrog-Ganker] !
[Aind] if your pve is like eq you will be set ;p
[Boeman] One thing we need to get straight here is that people PvP to make a name
for themselves; it isn't just for the equipment.
[tetris] Dureal, in asheron's call, there isn't any set places you HAVE to control,
but in order for a guild to prosper, you must control at least a few areas...
i like it that way. you dont have to protect certain areas, but of course you'll
fight on your own for good areas without the game mechanics in place.
[Silhouette] PvP is a very hard thing to get right
[zepH-] the game just needs a viable economy and good pvp
[Naillo] make a pvp server
[zepH-] and it will pwn
[Kenolil-DV] because then everyone will max their running, then what's the point?
[Ubiytza[Combine]] thats ok, as long as u can bloody well kill ppl in towns, i
dont want safe havens./...then u get zone campers
[Rivet|sleepzzz] Do you plan to make PVP servers ?
[zepH-] ECONOMY + PVP = GOOD AME
[Vehementi] I think that the ideal game that is not based on PVP (Ie the goal
of the game isn't to kill the other race) should simply include ways to accomplish
role-playing storyline goals in a PVP fashion. For example, one should be able
to kill the poeple trying to release the Demon Lord (like in AC)
[Silhouette] I agree zepH-
[Martyr] PVP i sthe only reason to play a mmorpg as far as im concered
[Martyr] its why i play uo
[ryme] Martyr i agree completely
[Aind] well if you have no safe haven , you need easy ways to avoid pvp
[Ballrog-Ganker] ya really
[CnCG0D] but the goal in the world of warcraft IS killing the other races
[tetris] it's why i play AC
[Ubiytza[Combine]] Martys has a point
[RJO] veh - that is the nail on the head
[Aind] like in daoc you live or die
[Kenolil-DV] safe havens are good, in my opinion, because how do you manage a
trades system without a safe haven?
[Aind] no chance in running most of hte time
[Ubiytza[Combine]] but you do not want a Quake or CS frag fest
[Silhouette] I concur Vehementi
[CnCG0D] orc and hummies arent exactly friendly
[Racius] it's a world of war... you want to kill the other races
[Ballrog-Ganker] yes I do
[Mattt] I wouldn't say killing the other racesis the goal.
[zepH-] pvp shouldnt be avoidable
[Ubiytza[Combine]] you dont need a trade system if you can do something ALA Ac2...
[Racius] what do you expect the humans and orcs to kiss eachother?
[Mattt] Especially after Warcraft III.
[RJO] I think in this day and age of MMORPGs you cannot have a wide open land
[Aind] i think if daoc increased the safe zone time it wouldn't be so bad
[Silhouette] But they still are allied
[RJO] where everyone is open to attack
[zepH-] it just splits the playerbase
[RJO] it just doesn't work that way
[CnCG0D] they defeat the enemy then go to war again :)
[Mattt] Remember that WoW takes place after WarIII, where humans and orcs aren't
total enemies.
[Silhouette] We shall fibd out whether their alliance fell apart like the human
alliance did after the first war
[Mortarion] lol
[AlarinWC3] Thrall isnt inclined to constantly war
[Aind] is there just going to be the 4 races?
[Davien] Shadowbane ] WoW, i'm out cya
[Racius] They'll still destroy eachother
[zepH-] DO NOT SPLIT THE PLAYERBASE
[AlarinWC3] *ing
[Dureal] Can we play as undead?
[Ballrog-Ganker] split
[Talice] the problem with WoW is that there is no common enemy anymore
[Silhouette] Right
[Kalukoo] yea definatly
[Talice] except maybe the scourge
[Silhouette] Undead are evil
[Kenolil-DV] splitting the playerbase is pretty much the way it happens
[Ballrog-Ganker] pvpers ] care bears :P
[AlarinWC3] Scourge
[Remfin] you don't call the undead a common enemy? heh
[Kalukoo] It should be about politics
[AlarinWC3] Creeps
[Mattt] the undead are a good enemy
[Vehementi] The game must have PVP, of course. Not having pvp would alienate a
lot of gamres. Similarly, basing the game on "kill this group of players"
will also alienate a lot of players. The answer is to simply allow PVP and Non-PVP
ways to complete storyline-related quests.
[Silhouette] the other races are atleast neutrl
[Kenolil-DV] whether it's splitting the classes, or splitting the realms
[Dureal] Undead are evil, Demons are evil. And there are factions within any race
that can be considered evil
[Dureal] There can be evil hhumans and good humans
[CnCG0D] remember warcraft world is a world of killing
[Dureal] Evil orcs and good orcs
[Boeman] if the game allows you to group with other players from different races
than essentially races mean nothing in terms of hostility
[CnCG0D] winning and looseing
[AlarinWC3] lots of creeps will act fine as monsters
[Aind] my problem is pvp tends to fancy the zerg tactics ;/
[Talic_Jetrpg] Elves are evil and everyoen here knows it :p
[Ballrog-Ganker] so make it more skill based
[AlarinWC3] Elves are wiped out :o
[Aind] yah
[Racius] Boeman to an extent
[Silhouette] High Elves are evil and Cruel, night Elves are nice
[CnCG0D] i wanna be a huntresses and ownage everyone with my mass overpoweredness
[Aind] and i hate the one template for people
[Racius] But Humans and Dwarves worked together
[Remfin] except skill based turns into "higher framerate wins" based
[AlarinWC3] High Elves were evil and cruel
[Remfin] =\
[Aind] like daoc everyone will preety much be the same template
[tetris] asheron's call has a good split. 6-7? carebear servers, 1 pvp server.
and every carebear server has double or more the people online at all times.
[Nuke] wow Wolfgang gets around
[AlarinWC3] They sorta neutral in current storyline
[Kalukoo] Theres nothing more frustrating then not being able to kill someone.
There should be safe havens but only for crafting.... if its like race vs race
then theres should be defended keeps. WE should look at what SB says.... player
run world..
[Wolfgang] =)
[Silhouette] RvR would seriously Blow
[Kiir] okay guys onto the next question
* RJO slaps Sparrowhawk around a bit with a large trout
[Kiir] How big of a role will players play in the world of warcraft? Could we
make kings, mayors and such? Will these people be able to make towns around them?
Really build a sense of community
[Kalukoo] YES
[Dureal] Of course.
[CnCG0D] build towns
[tetris] yes
[Remfin] why are you asking us/ we aren't the devs =p
[Kalukoo] Fully run player economy
[Racius] Yes, no question about it, the more control the players have the better
[RJO] I think SWG has a good idea with their town system
[Nuke] I'd be very surprised
[Talice] yes definitely
[CnCG0D] not individual kings etc but guild control
[Nuke] actually
[Silhouette] I Hope their will be Player owned Cities
[RJO] I think the future of MMORPGs includes this sort of thing as a MUST
[Kenolil-DV] Only question I have is why no one else has done that, so yea, definitely
[Aind] well having all that stuff when do you want the game released? ;p 2100
;p
[Nuke] small groups to be sure, but probably never more than 5%
[CnCG0D] yes we wantr the stuff In the first release
[Kenolil-DV] Politics add to an interesting twist, make the players feel they
have a say or control in their world
[Vehementi] Remember, players controlling things comes at the cost of storyline...
[Aind] horizens comes to my mind ;p
[ryme] Good idea but hard to make happen
[CnCG0D] because promised later=never happens
[Remfin] it's blizzard aind, that's the ETA anyway
[Talice] cities should be able to be built and destroyed by players
[Aind] hehe
[Mattt] Yeah, I think players should be able to form together and make towns,
complete with all politcal figures. Of course it would have to be democratically
run!
[Talic_Jetrpg] if not total place and build ther eown town at least , be able
to take over a "town skeliton
[Talice] if a bunch of people want a new city
[Talice] they can build one
[Talice] but a group of bandits should be able to rally and destroy it
[Remfin] forced democracy sucks mattt =\
[Silhouette] Politics In Game are fun
[Remfin] need to allow a choice
[Silhouette] Not necessraily though IRL
[Kalukoo] Yep we dont want AO or DAOC..... Ok listen we had to *make belife* in
AO that we had a organization.... i remember we were having a guild meeting and
we COULDENT KILL LOSERS THAT CAME IN AND ACTED LIKE RETARDS..... the world has
to be malliable that is to say that you can do things to alter the world to your
likeing.
[Racius] Well if players truly have control they can easily make their own storyline
[Ballrog-Ganker] IF people controll areas it will mess up the story line if blizz
ever wants to make another warcraft game
[RJO] I think you should be buying land in WoW not just "houses"
[Talice] this is a medieval game
[tetris] player run elections would be sweet
[Talice] democracy doesn't exist yet
[RJO] might make somethign like this easier
[CnCG0D] pvp creates politics
[Nuke] we'll need forced democracy or we'll havea 97/98 UO on our hands
[CnCG0D] if you havent played on RZ you should try it
[CnCG0D] politics suck IMHO
[Remfin] forced democracy was a huge problem in UO...
[Talic_Jetrpg] " and make it into a full blown city by means of upgradeing
, maybe even finding speachal items that alow to to build or upgrade certain parts
of ur town
[Talice] democracy sucks
[Dureal] That isnt true Nuke
[Remfin] some jealous idiot invites 30 friends and votes you out of guildleadership
[Silhouette] Democracy was around in roman times
[Racius] Well Ball
[Mattt] Democracy would be needed for a player run town or else the mayor could
take over and ruin everything.
[Kalukoo] yep
[Kenolil-DV] politics are an interesting factor, and I agree, they suck for those
who get screwed by it
[Talice] right
[Silhouette] Yes
[Nuke] it isnt? the subscription rate went up 20 fold from 99 to 01
[Kalukoo] Democracy in a VIRTUAL inviroment wont work.
[Vehementi] mattt: not true. people would simply leave the town.
[Boeman] unless it really servers a purpose, administrating a town will just be
treated as another abstract function. More like a means to an end to give the
town defenders an advantage than as a role to actually be filled
[Ballrog-Ganker] yes racius ?
[Ballrog-Ganker] =)
[Remfin] mattt, if the town is founded on a dictatorship you know what to expect
[Boeman] serves even
[Silhouette] There could be a new king of Azeroth
[Kenolil-DV] but they're necessary for keeping interest
[Remfin] you don't have ot worry about dirty politics stealing the town =p
[Kalukoo] because theres no REPRECUSSION to voteing on a non-real setting
[Talice] but in roman times, it still went back and forth between a democracy
and an empire
[Kalukoo] Talice
[CnCG0D] nope
[Silhouette] Then maybe eventually Kalimdor and Lordaeron
[Mattt] How about making an option for type of government then?
[Kalukoo] We are not in RL here
[CnCG0D] not democracy
[ryme] Mattt sometimes people dont know what is best for them, thats where the
king/mayor/whatever comes in :D
[Dureal] If the mayor takes over and becomes a dictator the people can rise up
and take him out
[Talice] players should be able to create democracy for themselves
[Kalukoo] this is virtual..
[CnCG0D] it was a republic
[CnCG0D] the USA is a republic not democracy
[Talice] there definitely should not be a forced political system
[Vehementi] If the town is controlled by a bad person, there are things that can
happen: a) players will leave the town. b) players will overthrow the leader.
c) players will KILL the leader.
[Nuke] its a democracy, not a republic :)
[AlarinWC3] representitive democracy
[CnCG0D] nope
[Nuke] Cn you have it backwards
[Remfin] no it's a republic
[Khalah[SUN]] I wonder when they plan on beginning...
[CnCG0D] the USA is a republic :)
[Kalukoo] See the problem is player responsibility
[Talice] the USA is not a democracy
[Talic_Jetrpg] CnCG0D THANK u USA is a republic
[Kiir] guys discuss wow politics now us :)
[Kiir] err not even :)
[Kalukoo] hm
[ryme] :I
[CnCG0D] :)
[Silhouette] Yes, please keep the discussion on WoW
[Kalukoo] lol
[CnCG0D] :)
[Talice] forced political system = bad
[Kalukoo] indeed
[Kenolil-DV] anyways, I like the idea of politics, you'll have those who rebel
and form their own dictatorships to "fight the man"
[Kalukoo] the chat is scrolling too fast
[Talice] if players want to rally around a king, let them
[Silhouette] I concur Talice
[ryme] that surely made everyone quiet
[Talice] if they want to create a democracy, let them
[Remfin] anyway, you don't FORCE democracy you ahve to give them a choice when
they create it =p
[Kenolil-DV] and then you'll have your "republics" and "democracies"
[Silhouette] forced political system = bad
[Kalukoo] yea like in SB
[RJO] in all other MMORPGs Guild Masters are like dictators in a sense
[RJO] you join their guild
[CnCG0D] i wanna pk all commies and socialists
[Kalukoo] you can choose your political state
[RJO] and you live by their rules or you leave
[Remfin] UO isn't like that anymore rjo =\
[Talice] WoW shouldnt not be guild based
[ryme] RJO you can leave the guild if you dont like it
[RJO] same would apply to player establishments
[Remfin] if an officer invites enough friends he can vote out the guildleader
[Talic_Jetrpg] yes step up diffrent guidl run towns with diffrent politcal systems
[Kalukoo] yea guild based is gay
[RJO] right yme.. you leave if you don't like it
[Mattt] Maybe upon town creation, the mayor will be able to choose democracy,
communism, dictatorship, monarchy, etc (Civ3 style)
[Sparrowhawk] WoW should have guilds
[Silhouette] Then we could even have sercret societies like the Freemasons and
Illuminatti
[Kenolil-DV] I think player establishments are important
[Talic_Jetrpg] Guidl all the way
[Remfin] exactly mattt =p
[ryme] people wont follow shithead dictators for long
[Kalukoo] oh yes ryme
[Talice] player establishments are important
[Boeman] this is a pipe dream guys, no one will care about politics unless it
servers as an integral part of the game, and even then, only if it somehow gives
them better stats or equipment in return
[Kalukoo] Patron is a great dictator
[Talic_Jetrpg] other wise its just random playign building and pking
[Silhouette] I concur ryme
[Dureal] Ha
[Kenolil-DV] they'll follow them if they're afraid of them
[Ecnassianer[SOT]] Why isn't this channel moderated?
[Kalukoo] Patron was able to have a great dictatorship going as TCE
[ryme] so its not a bad thing if the guild leader is all-powerfull :D
[Vehementi] Again, crappy dictators/leaders can be solved QUITE handily by PVP...
:D
[Stormcaller[FoN]] A dictator would get nowhere if he announced himself as a dictator
Civ3 style
[Kenolil-DV] see, the way a cruel dictator gets by with being a dictator is by
having a power base
[Silhouette] yes
[Talic_Jetrpg] no most peopel woudl rather die then follow
[Stormcaller[FoN]] The whole point would be that he'd carefully and subtly dictate
[Mattt] Politics is actually a big part in SWG. I think it could be a big part
in WoW too.
[Dureal] Great dictatorship and great success are two different thigns
[Mattt] Why not make a skill set for politics?
[Kenolil-DV] yea, so make the death penalty severe and make them take their chances
=)
[Dureal] all he succeeded in doing was making himself the biggest target
[Talic_Jetrpg] puke
[Remfin] they CLAIM it' sa big part, like everyone CLAIMS player-run things are
but rarely pan out
[Talice] because anybody should be able to be a leader
[Silhouette] Yes, there Can be Benevolent Dictators
[RJO] Mattt - politics shouldn't be a skill set but something you just do
[Talic_Jetrpg] yes talice
[Kiir] not everyone can be a leader though
[RJO] (coming from a politician rofl)
[Silhouette] I concur RJO
[Talice] yes they can
[Boeman] For that reason lineage in North Amerca will likely fail because it is
based on declaring your alleigence to someone and fighting for him/her.
[Talice] everyone has the potential to lead
[Kiir] but not everyone is willing
[ryme] Talice nahh, look at me and say that again :D
[Talice] right
[Kiir] most people prefer to be lead
[Silhouette] Nor are they skilled
[Kenolil-DV] not everyone has the potential to be good at it
[RJO] willingness is the key :)
[Kiir] which is why politica can work in games
[Remfin] nah boeman it will work for people who manage to find a non-idiot leader
[Silhouette] I concur
[RJO] indeed it can.. if you have the push .. you can do it...
[Talice] a specific 'politics' skill is pointless
[Remfin] the problem is the idiot ganking PKs are the same ones who want to lead
an army of themselves
[Talice] it should be based on the specific player
[Kiir] yes
[Talic_Jetrpg] agree
[Kenolil-DV] the true fact is that very few people have the potential to be good
leaders, and you can tell who the good ones and the bad ones are pretty fast
[RJO] it requires you making a change within your self and representing something
others will follow
[Silhouette] I, once gain, concur
[Ecnassianer[SOT]] AC had swearing alleigence and fighting for that person, didn't
fail
[Talice] not how high the character's skill is
[ryme] Kenolil-DV yes
[Corwin|WE] Let guilds group together to form their own factions and form their
own towns and rules.
[RJO] that is a good idea cor
[Kiir] Okay guys great answers now onto the next questions
[Kiir] you can send me questions if you want to have them discussed as well
[Kiir] What type of economy do you think that WoW will have, and how important
do you think player crafted items will be compared to items that can be found
off of mobs?
[Boeman] but in AO it wasn't that critical for the game. It's just merely an instrument
like in UO's guild system
[Vehementi] Player crafted items should ALWAYS be more powerful than the best
item spawned randomly int he monster loot system.
[Mattt] I agree.
[Kenolil-DV] Player crafted should be instrumental, you should be able to make
equivalent items of value, or better
* RJO nods
[Slaive] I agree with Vehe
[Silhouette] DAOC had a decent Player Crafting system
[Dureal] Player crafted should be superior or nearly superior of equal level to
what can be dropped
[ryme] I think the items crafted by players and got from mobs should be equally
good
[[A-X]whatisamage] Definatly not Vehementi
* Silhouette concurs
[Boeman] when a requirement is made for people to actually band together because
they HAVE to, then it becomes problematic
[Kenolil-DV] DAoC didn't, but it might
[RJO] player crafting has to be a center element of the economy and the game in
general
[Sparrowhawk] I personally like less magic items, and more and more player made
items
[Vehementi] The only items that should be superior to the best player crafted
items should be the odd plot-related unique item.
[[A-X]whatisamage] If player crafted items are stronger then the items spawned
on monsters whats the point of huning monsters then?
[RJO] player built up/improved items
[Renzuo] boeman are you trying to say that north americans cant be loyal?
[Sparrowhawk] Make the magic, server spwaned items strong, but not last long
[RJO] over magic items aye
[Talic_Jetrpg] Bahh use a quilty system player mdae items can be better or worse
[Talice] every mob item should be unique
[Mattt] But I think player crafted items should require team work. For example,
one player could start the item, pass it on to another player with a different
skill who adds to the item, and then passes it to the final player who finished
another aspect of the item.
[Kiwi-box] raise the food limit to 200
[ryme] whatisamage to get levels? :D
[Talice] if you get a weapon from a mob you should be able to say
[Silhouette] Yes, magic Items should lose their power over time
[Dureal] .The idea is to DE-EMPHISIZE mosnter hunting as the main way to do things..
[Vehementi] whatisamage: EXP, for one. If monster items are better than crafted,
there is no reason at all to craft items.
[Vehementi] Exactly, dureal.
[Talice] "I got this from one of those ice trolls"
[RJO] the idea is to get players to interact
[Mattt] Increasing player interaction is always a very good idea.
[RJO] that is what MMORPGs are all about
[Kiwi-box] I think food limit should be raised to 200 :P
[Kenolil-DV] Ok, I really like the idea that player crafted items would actually
LAST LONGER then dropped
[Silhouette] But for gods sake, DO nOT INCLUDE FROSTMOURNE
[RJO] it is getting the community working with one and other
[TremorChrist] A-X: exactly. Get the players out of the "Kill a monster-repeat"
gameplay mindset
[Talic_Jetrpg] so player made itmes can have 125% of best drop 100%
[Kenolil-DV] because that provides yet another incentive
[Mattt] Guys, we're not talking about the Warcraft III food limit here. :)
[Boeman] renzuo: North Americans are taught to be individuals. In Asia where Lineage
is successful, they are taught to retain group-mentality
[Talic_Jetrpg] thuse incressign all stats buy 125
[Vehementi] LOL
[Rivet|sleepzzz] If u just make the game around loot it'll be another EVerquest.
[Silhouette] lol
[[A-X]whatisamage] Vehementi: yes there are cause the best monster-looted weapons
are of course RARE... if you can craft the best weapons in the game u can go create
1000 of thoose when u are at the highest level.. how fun will that be?
[Mattt] Why not make rare player crafted items?
[ryme] whatisamage good point
[Kenolil-DV] Would you rather go out and fight for your gear, or sit for hours
by a forge and craft it?
[[A-X]whatisamage] Mattt things u can craft only once then?
[Vehementi] The best monster-looted weapons can consistenly be found off a certain
group of monsters.
[Mattt] For example, make a rare resource that is mined somewhere be required
to build an item.
[Kiir] maybe a combination of player items and drops
[Kenolil-DV] Most people would rather fight for it
[Talic_Jetrpg] yes best items Mob drop of of Super man eat tree tooth picking
Black dragon
[RJO] I would rather have money coming from killing and paying the guy who likes
smithing to make my weaopns
[TremorChrist] Or quest for it
[Mattt] Maybe a rare ore that a high level miner must find, who then gives it
to a high level smith to craft an "uber" sword?
* RJO was always a crafter over player in UO in the old days
[Silhouette] I concur, player Crafted Items Should Have an Equivalent Monster
Item
[Kiir] such as to make uber sword 0001 you need to get the tear of the orc cheif
and it is a very hard item to get?
[Corwin|WE] If you want to combine the two systems, then simply require items
to enhance a weapon only be found on monsters.
[RJO] there is people out there who prefer to craft.. plain and simple
[Kensi] Man, user crafter weapons are gonna rule
[Boeman] The problem with rares/good magic items that is that people horde it.
No one wants to lose the good stuff if they know they will die just as quick using
them
[Kenolil-DV] crafted weapons should be customizable
[Silhouette] Yes, but like i said, player Crafted Items Should Have an Equivalent
Monster Item
[Kenolil-DV] whereas dropped weapons are fixed
[Nonuss] crafted everything should be customizable
[Silhouette] i concur Nonuss
[Kensi] What do you mean by that sil?
[Kenolil-DV] that's an advantage, and the idea that crafted would last longer
makes it a very functional system
[Vehementi] Kenolil: what if dropped weapons are random?
[Mattt] Do you think players will be able to socket gems in their swords? hehe.
That could be a trade skill in itself.
[Vehementi] Probably :P
[Kensi] lol
[RJO] that would be cool mattt :)
[Kenolil-DV] I think that would be confusing for a player economy that had weapons
sales
[Silhouette] The Best monster Item Should be Equivalent to the best Crafted item
[[A-X]whatisamage] yes that could be cool Mattt.. like they have in UO.. but u
can still create thousands of that.. just for hte miner to mine and mine.. and
the smith ti smith and smith.. i think the best weapons of a game shouldnt exist
in thousands... (sorry for the bad english=)
[TremorChrist] Thats what we need "World of Diablo"
[Kensi] Sockets, brings back memories of Diablo 2 days
[Obudan] bleck, no thanks
[Kenolil-DV] I mean, imagine your FBSS didn't have a Haste effect
[Kensi] lol
[Mattt] whatisamage, you could make it so there is only enough of a mineral to
make say 2 swords
[Talic_Jetrpg] Still Mobs shoudl drop the best equp , but use zone and dungon
sytem where it take s a while to get to the mob that actuly drops its , and where
that mob alwasy drops equp whatever it be , but once beathign the zone is cleared
of peopel and mobs until repop , where as u have to start all over at the begining
[Kensi] Socketing was pretty cool that, I think that would rock in World Of Warcraft
[Kenolil-DV] how pissed off would that guy be when he finds out it has a caster
stat?
[nt|grav1ja] if there alot of ppl in the tampabay area in here or is it just me?
[Mattt] and then the mineral doesn't spawn anymore.
[Silhouette] I concur Talic_Jetrpg
[Kensi] o.O
[Spearioos[PRX]] well you could have player crafted weapons be as good as monster
loot items, if you had masterpiece items by players
[Kenolil-DV] you really need the crafting system to be valued, so it should be
equivalent except on Epic encounter
[Silhouette] Thats what I Meant Spear
[Kenolil-DV] if they are planning on having encounters like that
[Spearioos[PRX]] so that you couldn't make 1000 awesoem swords
[Talic_Jetrpg] works great in muds and keeps peopel comign and playing , but doesn't
make u work for 5 hours for nothignat all
[Spearioos[PRX]] but you could have maybe 1 or 2 masterpieces made by a crafter
[Silhouette] Its starting to tone down once again Kiir
[RJO] something along the lines of UO's exceptional rating by rarer?
[Spearioos[PRX]] and of course you could get the masterpiece enchanted, etc.
[RJO] by = but
[Spearioos[PRX]] right exactly
[[A-X]whatisamage] I think UO had a great Crafting contra Magic weapons system...
cause there wasnt enough magic weaps so ppl only used em.. ppl dont wanna loose
their great VANQ weapon... so ppl buyed GM-made weapons.. but then OSI came up
with runic hammers so guys can craft ULTRA weapons.. thats not cool for the guys
who hunted for ages just to get one VANQ weapon
[Mattt] I agree that they need the crafting system to be valued. otherwise, people
will just camp monsters if they can get better things off monsters than players,
which will result in tradeskills becoming useless.
[Kensi] hmm
[Kiir] okay guys we are going to move on now
[Kiir] Would you like to see spells, combat techniques, and crafted skills make
use of more than one character, allowing players to pool their skills in one combined
effort?
[Kensi] ah ha
[kongzer] woof woof
[Kensi] magic
[Kensi] my neck of the woods
[Kenolil-DV] Don't understand that question too much heh
[Spearioos[PRX]] the problem with crafting in games such as daoc
[RJO] we touched on this one last round
[ryme] that would be coold
[RJO] it is a very good idea ;)
[Kensi] Magic = The Rx
[Spearioos[PRX]] is that the crafters can't keep up with the leveling
[Talic_Jetrpg] yes
[Kensi] Rox*
[Mattt] You know, I never thought of that. That would be very cool.
[Talic_Jetrpg] Co-op IS key
[[A-X]whatisamage] I really dont understand that question =(
[Rivet|sleepzzz] crafted skills.
[Spearioos[PRX]] take for instance andred and mordred on daoc
[Mattt] Imagine if five players had to circle together to cast an amazing spell.
[Kenolil-DV] oh, I see
[Corwin|WE] If your magic and melee system is designed correctly, there'd be no
need to give a bonus for proper teamwork.
[Nonuss] blizzard should be here...alot of good info in this channel
[Spearioos[PRX]] no crafter right nwo can make items for the high level players
[Kenolil-DV] yea, that would be interesting
[Silhouette] That would be cool Mattt
[RJO] like having players who are warrior types fight monsters... then have crafters
by those items and turn around craft something with them... then sell them back
to warriors at large
[Mattt] Nonuss, you never know if they'll read it or not. :)
[Silhouette] Like Summoning an Ent
[ryme] whatisamage its like five mages casting one spell together
[Silhouette] Or a Demon
[Nonuss] hehe
[Kenolil-DV] Ok, for Magic and for Fighting, yes, I like the idea
[RJO] would in itself create positive interaction and community
[Kenolil-DV] for Crafting, no, I don't, and Armorcrafting in DAoC is a perfect
example of why
[Spearioos[PRX]] yes rjo exactly
[Vehementi] I agree. Coop is definitely good. Having a blacksmith imbue his longsword
of doom with the sweet, sweet power of a cupcake of annihition to make the best
sword ever... :)
[[A-X]whatisamage] aha ok ryme thx
[Kensi] Like, FIght Magic? Like "Wind Sword" For a warrior that adds
wind damage?
[Mattt] This reminds me of those old SNES RPG's where 2 or 3 players could combine
together for a special move.
[TremorChrist] wind damage?
[Kensi] lol
[Wolfgang] heh
[[A-X]whatisamage] yes that would be really cool against monsters.. but not if
u concern PvP if u can get a spell that does instakill
[RJO] having a warrior and a mage combine sword and magic (ala the Majere twins)
would be interesting
[RJO] never though of that before ;)
[RJO] could be quite interesting the result
[Mattt] I think combined moves could add a lot to PvP.
[Talic_Jetrpg] hehe azuras dreams
[Kenolil-DV] if it's not REQUIRED that you have someone else there, then yea,
it'd be fine, but crafting is often done alone, and requiring someone else to
have to do something for you really makes it difficult
[RJO] though = thought :)
[TremorChrist] "a gust of wind blows by you. You hardly notice."
[Kensi] -.-
[[A-X]whatisamage] Mattt: not if they allow instakill hits
[Kenolil-DV] hehe combat styles sort of like Chrono Trigger, you're right, it
does remind me of that
[Slaive] Well Kenolil- co-op crafting would help to lessen the "1000 badass
swords" syndrome.
[Corwin|WE] Numbers in battle already have too many benefits.
[Corwin|WE] They don't need more. :(
[Mattt] Whatisamage: True. Although maybe the other side has an ultimate conbined
shield move?
[RJO] what about certain types and limited amounts of numbers?
[Kenolil-DV] ok, what if you play during a time period when few people are online?
[Silhouette] I concur Slaive
[RJO] 2 mages and 2 knights combine their energies and cast ... dun dun dun
[RJO] :)
[[A-X]whatisamage] yes if they manage to even it out...
[Vehementi] I think spells should be combined in the way of having two characters
cast two different, say, attack spells on the same enemy. If they're cast within
an appropriate window, the spells have an empowering effect (e.g. fireball + ice
bolt = PAIN)
[Nonuss] what they could do for uber encounters is put some of the items needed
for crafting an uber sword or something like that on the uber mob
[Kenolil-DV] it really screws off hours population crafters if they have to depend
on someone to make a prerequisite item
[Nonuss] then no mobs drop anything better than what can be crafted
[Silhouette] i concur
[Talic_Jetrpg] HEHe u peeps want to know how to make a game that works well look
2 duris (a mud) it has best game paly in all areas - its all texts
[Vehementi] I don't really see how fighting techniques could be combo'd, other
than, say, having a Monk stun someone with his fist, then have someone do a normal
attack that turns into a deathblow. But that's just teamwork.
[TremorChrist] Like one player blacksmith makes a sword, a gem crafter cuts the
gems, and an enchanter enchants the gems, then they comine them to the sword to
make a magic weapon.
[Aludian] or freeze the enemy and have a knight bust open the ice with his sword
dealing massive trauma dmg
[Boeman] But it limited character slots should be given to that players are dependant
on one another and just "you and your gandma" has a mule syndrome
[Vehementi] As for trade skills (blacksmithing, cooking, alchemy, etc.) being
combo'd, I believe this is essential. Imbue a sword with a powerful potion to
make a very strong sword with magical properties, for example.
[Boeman] it should limit character slots even
[Kenolil-DV] well, it's like if you have two people hitting in combination, it
does more damage, has more negative effects, then if you both attacked independently
at the sametime
[Silhouette] I concur
[Slaive] I'm sure ya could come up with some team attacks. A double sword swipe
of some sort, or a pikeman formation.
[Vehementi] Exactly, Kenolil-DV
[Mattt] Yeah
[Silhouette] I concur, Slaive
[Kenolil-DV] Vehementi, agreed, but don't make it required to CRAFT, make it required
to make the most powerful items only
[Vehementi] Kenolil-DV Yeah.
[Spearioos[PRX]] to make an awesoem crafted item you'd have to have cooperation
[RJO] I thought you said pokemon formation :P
[Spearioos[PRX]] otherwise people would jsut craft
* RJO nods
[Spearioos[PRX]] and not fight monsters
[Slaive] I agree with Kenolil
[RJO] spear - there is crafters and there is players
[Spearioos[PRX]] but through cooperation you should be able to make items that
are equal or almost equal to high level mobs
[Kenolil-DV] people would not craft and not fight monsters no matter what
[Silhouette] pokemon formation :P
[RJO] that will not change ;)
[Kensi] lol
[Spearioos[PRX]] yep
[Kenolil-DV] because it's not in most people's nature to sit and craft for hours
on end heh
[Silhouette] RJO, you just said Pokemon Formation
[RJO] indeed I did :)
[Spearioos[PRX]] but a game should reward those who do want to craft
[Evin] Err. Ever played UO?
[Spearioos[PRX]] and there are plenty who do
[RJO] Keno - I do :)
[Kiir] okay guys let's move onto the next question now
[RJO] remember folks.. Pokemon...
[Kiir] what playable races should be included?
[Kensi] lol
[Kensi] ah ha!
[ryme] As many as possible!
[Vehementi] everything from wc3 :P
[TremorChrist] Undeadf.
[Mattt] Night Elves!
[Kensi] ORCSSSSS
[Silhouette] NIGHT ELVES!
[Ballrog-Ganker] gnomes
[Slaive] OH Can of worms there!
[Spearioos[PRX]] in cluse all the wc3 races
[CnCG0D] goblins
[[A-X]whatisamage] Humans and humans only
[Wolfgang] I think Undead shoudl be one!
[[Quantum]] LICHS
[Mattt] I do'nt think undead would work well as a human race.
[Talic_Jetrpg] not sides races
[Mattt] Undead are eivl.
[Mattt] The ymust die.
[[Quantum]] LICHS
[Ballrog-Ganker] ninja hermaphrodite assasins with 1 leg
[ryme] goblins and halflings :)
[Silhouette] Night Elves would rule
[[Quantum]] LICHS!!!!!!!!!!
[Slaive] lmao at Ballrog
[Vehementi] game should focus on the orcs, humans and night elves re-taking the
main continent from the legion of the damned and the undead :)
[[A-X]whatisamage] I dont like the thing of different races being good on differnt
things.. just unbalance the whole game
[ryme] kobolds ala DAoC
[CnCG0D] i wanna be a goblin and make land mines
[Spearioos[PRX]] all the human alliance races
[Kenolil-DV] They should put all the player races in except split up the human
alliance into separate races
[Kenolil-DV] and Elves into Night Elves and High Elves
[[Quantum]] LICHS!!!!!!!!!!
[Slaive] Well... lets come up with a list of all known warcraft races first...
then go from there.
[Silhouette] Yeah, all elves should be in
[Dureal] Unead.
[Vehementi] first of all, quantum, we heard oyu the third time. and it's spelled
"Liches"
[[Quantum]] Lichs are the most hardcore race of all time.
[Mattt] Elves are dead though.
[Xzar_] taurans would be cool too
[Dureal] undead even
[Spearioos[PRX]] when this game comes out in 2011 it's going to rule
[kongzer] KILLER COWS! from Diablo 2!!!
[ryme] lichs would be coold :)
[Mattt] So only night elves
[Silhouette] PANDERANS!
[[A-X]whatisamage] HUMANS AND HUMANS ONLY I TELL YOU!!!!!
[Mattt] lol kongzer
[TremorChrist] Dryads
[Dureal] The elves arent dead.
[Clement] Dwarves!
[Mattt] Well not all of them
[Vehementi] Come on kids, we don't need caps and spam..
[Silhouette] Panderans!
[Ballrog-Ganker] you guys forgot pandas
[Dureal] Just cause Silvermoon blew up doesnt mean the whole race exploded
[[Quantum]] Vehementi- Is there a second of all?
[kongzer] Killer Cows!!!!! i say,!
[Black_Hand] PEEE PEEE
[ryme] fairies ;D
[Kenolil-DV] I can see how they could split the Undead up too, like Lich, Dreadlord,
there seems to be a bit of separation
[Kensi] Orcs, Humans, and Night-Elves, you could have 2 - 3 characters from each
race
[Black_Hand] !!
[RJO] on topic guys :)
[Talic_Jetrpg] so , orcs , humans , trolls , goblins , elf , dwarf , dryads ,
ect
[Spearioos[PRX]] panderans own
[Vehementi] quantum: yeah, the "and"
[Silhouette] And Regular Elves
[CnCG0D] deamons would be good side
[Boeman] Well, will these races be combating each other on a constant basis? Or
will it be a "anything goes" as to how other players from different
races can interact? If it's the latter then it won't really matter and races only
serve as a platform for different abilities
[Set-AFK] not just dwarves but disgruntled drunk dwarves
[Wolfgang] right now dwarves, humans, orcs, and the bull like beings will be in
game
[Kenolil-DV] Dryads seems more of a class to me
[[A-X]whatisamage] dont u get it.. races just unbalance the game!!
[Silhouette] Id Like to see The Night Elves and Elves Forgive each other
[Aludian] from the screens and info i have seen it doesnt look like that blizzard
is going for anything evil
[[Quantum]] Okey dokey, LichEs and PKs!
[Vehementi] The problem isn't choosing the races, it's balancing them and making
appropriate player characters (heroes?) for each.
[Spearioos[PRX]] and then the protoss :P
[Wolfgang] Elves shodul be teh next species
[Slaive] Taurens (the bull like beings)
[Mattt] I think Humans are Orcs will still not be on the best of terms but I think
they will be starting to get along somewhat.
[Aludian] i havent seen an evil related town yet
[Talic_Jetrpg] drays a class of what woodland creachers ?
[Silhouette] Slaive, taurens are in
[Nonuss] I agree mattt
[Slaive] Yeah, I was just saying their name.
[Kensi] How about, you get TONS and TONS of editing options on your char, you
make the most custom character anyone has ever seen and you make up a race for
it? And give it whatever stats you want?
[Talic_Jetrpg] ogre even
[Silhouette] Kensi, BAD!
[Mattt] I don't htink that would work too well Kensi.
* Kensi cowers
[Kenolil-DV] as much as I like that, I feel that they need some constraints
* Slaive pats Kensi on the head
[Mattt] Yeah
[Dureal] Nah Kensi
[Kensi] lol
[Dureal] for the same reason I like class based more than skill based.
[Kenolil-DV] first of all, it needs to fit into the world, and second, players
will inevitably find the most powerful combination, so you will have all the same
templates with different names
[[Quantum]] Skill Based ] Class Based fo lyfe.
[RJO] skill based is your friend :)
[Dureal] Its a lot more spiritual to say you're a Paladin of the Silver hand than
a melee spec with healing
[Ballrog-Ganker] ya realy
[Talic_Jetrpg] kensi u gave me a though maybe half races that are mixes of soem
of the races that can mix , elf human , ect
[Ballrog-Ganker] skill based ] all
[Kensi] ya
[Silhouette] Half Races WOuld Be cool
[Slaive] that is interesting
[[A-X]whatisamage] One Race ] Multiply Races
[Kensi] you could have base races then you could mix two, kinda like Baulders
Gate?
[TremorChrist] Half orcs would be good
[Kenolil-DV] Skill based is good in some situations, but it's better if you restrict
certain things
[Dureal] Goblin + Tauren
[[Quantum]] Skill based allows for complete customizability within characters,
and doesn't really limit one in what they want to do.
[Slaive] Half Orcs would indeed rock
[Mattt] lol Dureal
[RJO] on topic guys races
[[Quantum]] Kenolil- Why is it better to restrict certain things?
[Silhouette] What about a Hybrid Night elf and elf
[Xzar_] how about demons?
[Kensi] They could give you a button "Mix Race" and you select two races
and it gives you a new race
[Silhouette] Tieflings
[Kensi] hmm
[Black_Hand] what's the appx release date of WoW?!?
[Kenolil-DV] Because if you don't restrict certain things, then you have tank
mages
[Kensi] verh interesting
[Dureal] Tommarow Black hand!
[Dureal] Tommarow!!
[[Quantum]] What's wrong with tank mages?
[Boeman] it sounds like this game will be approaching a class-based system because
no one can agree on anything else for balance
[Black_Hand] !!
[Black_Hand] !
[Corwin|WE] Race restrictions don't work. Players just gravitate to whichever
race is most appropriate for their specialization, and humans lose.
[Slaive] So Gnomes... in or out?
[Dureal] !!
[Mattt] The release date is: "When it is done."
[Kensi] lol
[Talic_Jetrpg] yes tank mages are fine
[Kenolil-DV] hehe, tank and mage are two words not meant to go together
[Black_Hand] yay
[Kensi] Knowing Blizzard, 3 or 4 years?
[Talic_Jetrpg] but they not good tank or mage
[Kenolil-DV] that's just my opinion
[Silhouette] lol
[Black_Hand] k tks
[Dureal] Its fine to be half tank and half mage.
[Kensi] Tank Elf?
[Dureal] Just not 100% tank 100% mage
[Kensi] hmm
[[A-X]whatisamage] The release date is: "When its hyped enough"
[Vehementi] Corwin: I agree. If they made female characters have an agility boost,
and male characters have a constitution boost, all you'd see is male fighters
and female thieves.
[[Quantum]] Kenolil- Why not? If they have mastered the art of the sword, and
that of magery, and there's enough room in the template for it, why not?
[Kensi] Tank Hybrid Elf and Orc Mix o.O
[Silhouette] I concur Dureal
[Dureal] Classes like Shadowknights are like 1/3 mage 2/3 warrior
[Mattt] I don't think males and females should have a difference.
[Kensi] lol
[Kensi] LOL
[Talic_Jetrpg] Vehementi u are cforrect
[Kensi] make a Hybrid male elf and female elf lol
[Kensi] oh the possabilities
[Slaive] Good Question Quantum... but the fact is, Online just ain't like real
life...
[Silhouette] Thats how they did it in Morrowind Vehementi, Except Wood Elf females
Were Larger and Stronger
[Kiir] okay guys let's move on now :)
[Kiir] What should the consequences of dying be?
[Kensi] death?
[[Quantum]] Loss of loot.
[Slaive] heh heh
[Mattt] XP loss = bad!
[Bullhund|48] haha I just staff killed Danali
[Kensi] lol
[ryme] you loose all the stuff in your inventory
[Bullhund|48] what a noob
[[Quantum]] Whatever you have on your body, you lose.
[Talic_Jetrpg] exp , $$$ , loot
[Kensi] XP and Loot loss!!!
[Silhouette] Loos of ONLY Money and EXP
[ryme] no exp loss plz :(
[[Quantum]] No, no exp loss.
[[Quantum]] ONLY loot.
[kongzer] no exp
[Kensi] yes, but you could go back and loot your body like EQ right?
[ryme] yeah only loot loss :I
[Kenolil-DV] are we talking permanent loot loss?
[[Quantum]] And maybe something intangible like fame in UO?
[Slaive] I have to answer that question with another question: how often should
death occur?
[Kat|RS|] uhg no loot
[[Quantum]] Only more tangible, cuz fame sucks?
[[A-X]whatisamage] You die you loose all your stuff... no EXP or Skill loss though....
and you can go back and loot you body like UO....
[Vehementi] I say harsh item penalties, a temporary stat loss, and no exp penalty.
[Talic_Jetrpg] yes perm loot lose
[Kat|RS|] Exp money :\
[Talic_Jetrpg] loss
[Nonuss] exp loss...
[Silhouette] How about a system like DAOC
[Rivet|sleepzzz] You wont be able to lose a level right?
[Kensi] lol
[Kat|RS|] You can just get the exp back
[[Quantum]] DAoC has exp loss though.
[kongzer] people go start a quest run some place, die, go down to level 0 try
again, die, back to level 0, what the hell is the point of playing then?
[Vehementi] EXP loss is simply infuriating. Losing 4 hours of gameplay is simply
a BAD IDEA.
[Xzar_] that all depends on level caps and how often death occurs imo
[Kensi] No, how about Perm loot and item loss, and perm extreme XP loss
[Evin] You lose all the stuff you have on you.
[Mattt] I think a temporary stat loss or XP debt is a good idea.
[Nonuss] death needs to be bad enough than u make a serious effort not to die
[Talic_Jetrpg] U ahev to lose loot , because once u get max level whats there
to do ?
[Boeman] UO system of death is okay, you ghost on the spot and need ressurrection
[ryme] make your corpse lootable and let it be the only penalty
[Kat|RS|] I hate loot loss
[Kat|RS|] :\
[Nonuss] if its just loot and money and u have no loot or money u have nothing
to lose =-p
[[Quantum]] Tough
[Boeman] also criminal looting might be good
[Kenolil-DV] temporary stat loss, SMALL experience loss, and lootable corpse
[Rivethead] I hate level less.
[[A-X]whatisamage] kongzer: they loose theri stuff if they dont loot it again..
so that wount happen
[Dureal] Well loot less isnt as bad when your character isnt MADE by what gear
he has ala EQ
[Kat|RS|] Make it to where you can't lose a level
[Kensi] BOeman: if your body is left unatendied and unlooted for more than 10
minutes anyone can loot it
[Nonuss] it should have exp loss but never level loss
[Kat|RS|] that was bad in EQ
[Dureal] In EQ you ARE your gear.
[Kensi] but it gives the person a penalty on lawfulness or something?
[Vehementi] As for loot loss, all items should drop to your corpse, but only certain
items shoudl be lootable by other players (say, 5 random items.)
[Dureal] So loot loss is bad
[Mattt] True, Dureal.
[Slaive] Dureal... I concur
[Kensi] makes you more theif-y
[Nonuss] in eq gear is everything heh
[[Quantum]] I think all items should be lootable by other players.
[Silhouette] Not a lootable Corpes, if you are PKED, the attacker gets to loot
one or two items, pVE death, a random item drops
[Kenolil-DV] Quantum, you played UO
[[Quantum]] You die, you DIED! Your stuff drops.
[[Quantum]] Yeah, I know.
[Kenolil-DV] am I right?
[[A-X]whatisamage] no anyone should be able to loot the corpse directly.. though
turn criminal when looting...
[[Quantum]] I also played DAoC though.
[[Quantum]] And a little bit of AC and AO
[Vehementi] criminal flags = *BAD*
[Dureal] Criminal, peh
[Kat|RS|] I like DAOC's death system
[Boeman] next question should be whether banking is allowed
[Dureal] Very bad
[[Quantum]] Yes!
[Rivethead] Quantum: ever heard of Majormud? it was like that
[[A-X]whatisamage] Criminal flag = GOOD
[Mattt] why not make it like UO2 was to be where you have a limited number of
items you can make unlootable? The rest can possiblity be looted (with penalty
to the looter of course).
[Atma] NO
[Kenolil-DV] ok, that's what I figured, it's important for their to be a penalty,
but if you have a penalty where someone else can just walk by and pick up every
drop of gear you have...
[Aludian] I think experience loss is good, with the "possibility" of
a raider or theif taking an item from your corpse
[ryme] Mattt yeah
[[Quantum]] Nope, I'm not oldschool online enough for MUDs
[Nonuss] didnt they say thats how it is gonna be mattt?
[kongzer] you should be aloud to buy insurance on your items, so they stay with
you when you die, gold could not be insured, all your money would drop, items
that you have picked up off of killed mobs would drop, and so would the armor/weapon
you have equipped unless you have it insured, or magically binded to you. ~
[Kenolil-DV] well, that sucks, imo
[Dureal] Criminal flags are bad because they cant see circumstance
[RJO] why not get players inolved?
[ryme] kongzer yeah! :D
[Mattt] I'm not sure, Nonuss. I don't believe they have said.
[RJO] Allow wizards to bless items
[Kenolil-DV] insurance isn't a bad idea
[[A-X]whatisamage] No you should not be able to BLESS all stuff.. that sux
[RJO] it will cost ya
[Vehementi] John the jackass is pestering me, stealing my kills, spamming me,
flaming me, physically obstructing me, and otherwise griefing me in every way
imagineable. After four hours of incessant annoyance, I kill him and loot him.
I get a criminal flag and am Killed On Sight by all towns. THIS IS NOT A GOOD
THING.
[[A-X]whatisamage] then u can run around with all your things blessed not fearing
to die...
[RJO] but it will increase interaction and create an economic element within itself
[Boeman] If someone loots you and you're not grouped with him/her then where's
the ambiguity? You clearly had no intention of letting someone else loot your
corpse but your party
[Rivethead] vehe: hahahaahhahahahahahaha, that sounds like majormud to me =D
[Mattt] Vehementi, UO2's PvP system had a solution for this.
[Mattt] I would love to see it adapted for WoW.
[Boeman] So they could be flagged a criminal to just you or everyone else for
a limited period of time
[[A-X]whatisamage] Boeman what does ambiguity stand for?
[Vehementi] mattt: Do tell
[Vehementi] explain please lol
[Kenolil-DV] the ability for other people to loot your corpse without your consent
will drive people away
[[Quantum]] ambiguity means it can go either way.
[Dureal] Is any of this ever getting back to Blizz at all?
[[Quantum]] no
[Kenolil-DV] it will drive more people away then it will attract
[Nonuss] possibly
[Silhouette] We could send them the log
[Mattt] In a nut shell, griefers owuldn't hurt you much to kill them, which means
your crminal flag would be relatively short.
[Dureal] Then we may as well be doing this in my basement
[kongzer] [A-X]whatisamage - who said it was free?
[Vehementi] Mattt: how do you know who's a griefer?
[Kenolil-DV] and the people who it attracts are all the people who are going to
be disappointed with Shadowbane, and I'd rather play a different game then deal
with most of them
[Vehementi] mattt: how does the game tell the difference between a noob and a
level 1 getting in my way?
[RJO] the griefer flag? :P rofl
* Slaive chuckles
[Mattt] Someone who kills a lot of people or who dies *a lot* wouldn't be worth
as much when killed.
[Vehementi] griefer flag? griefers report me as a griefer to grief me.
[Silhouette] BRB
[[A-X]whatisamage] kongzer: I dont care how much it would cost... you should not
be able to bless ALL items... sure you can buy like 1 bless deed and bless your
favorite armor or soemthign.. but not ALL
[Kenolil-DV] the idea of flags in my opinion just seems unrealistic
[Vehementi] mattt: a smart griefer would simply kill nobody, get killed himself,
and you'd get a massive penalty.
[Slaive] Howzabout getting your whole body blessed so that upon death, no penalties
apply?
[Dureal] Yep
[Dureal] Criminal flags work against justice
[Mattt] If a griefer is killed by a lot of people, he would have no penalty to
give.
[Vehementi] kenolil: i agree completely. Until the game AI is able to know the
circumstances of every killing and what both players were thinking at the time,
a flag or automatic allignment system is simply arbitrary punishment.
[Boeman] If they could find a non-exploitable way to gain karma you can use karma
points towards blessing items and such
[Kenolil-DV] see, in EQ, the problem they had was that you could never truly gain
faction, but you could always lose it
* Slaive thinks Dureal is on the money.
[Vehementi] mattt: He'd reroll.
[Boeman] sort of like the factions in UO
[Kenolil-DV] if you could gain faction from killing, then it'd make a lot more
sense to me
[Vehementi] mattt: besides, if I kileld a bunch of newbies, a lot... they'd eventually
have been killed a lot, and woulnd't give me penalty to kill... so id' kill them
more!
[Mattt] You mean make a new char? Well newbies aren't worth much either when they
are killed; however, that's because UO2 had PvP areas, so newbies wouldn't be
in PvP areas.
[Vehementi] bah
[Vehementi] safe zones = bad
[TremorChrist] make it so you can kock people out with killing them be a seperate
command.
[Vehementi] period
[Silhouette] Unless they were idiots
[Dureal] PvP areas!
[Dureal] Even worse
[TremorChrist] knock too
[Slaive] I think death should not happen often.
[ryme] Vehementi safezones are good, the way they are in shadowbane
[Mattt] safe zones are a good idea so that newbies don't get killed so much
[Vehementi] no
[Boeman] but the point is that there a lot of players who get off on recklessly
killing newbies
[Vehementi] save zones = bad
[ryme] yes
[Evin] Safe zones are better than PvP switches.
[Boeman] are a lot even
[Vehementi] never are safe zones ever good
[Slaive] So that when it does happen, the free penalties don't seem so severe.
[Silhouette] Pvp areas, but if someone flees from you and goes into a safe zone
you can still kill em
[ryme] no point of having people gank newbies
[Evin] If you are going to control PvP, that's the best way I can think of.
[Silhouette] until like an hour passes
[Vehementi] ryme: so have effectively safe zones, for example, guarded areas
[Mattt] I agree, Evin.
[Kenolil-DV] I like the idea of safe zones or harsh penalties for being an asshole
[Guardian-GLB] Kenolil-DV. Please refrain from using profanity.
[Dureal] Safe zones only work if they are rare and are only used to protect newbies
[Boeman] 5 newbies should be able to take on one high-level character
[Vehementi] ryme: having an area where i magically cannot attack people is STUPID
[[A-X]whatisamage] safe zones are good but you shouldnt have a SAFE WORLD.. like
they created in UO.. trammel...
[Kiir] okay guys let's move on now
[Kiir] How do you think WoW will escape the repetative gameplay of most MMORPG's?
[[Quantum]] It won't
[Slaive] It won't
[Vehementi] hahahaha
* Slaive laughs
[Nuke|UO] roofles
[[Quantum]] :-)
[Dureal] By making leveling up easy and occuring in the background
[Vehementi] next
[Dureal] Thats the only way
[Mattt] That's not very optimistic.
[[A-X]whatisamage] repetative ?? sorry...
[Slaive] But it will offer Warcraft fans a great world and some nostalgia
[Kiir] repative means to do it over and over again
[Silhouette] I hope it isnt Repetitive
[Dureal] No one should ever have to sit down and "level up"
[ryme] make PvE fun ;D
[Boeman] update in-game content on a regular basis will help
[Kiir] like killing an orc 500 times to raise a level
[Mattt] yeah
[TremorChrist] By haveing more content then "kill NPCto gain skill/XP"
[Nuke|UO] by having a use-based skill system
[RJO] s t o r y l i n e
[Silhouette] I concur
[[A-X]whatisamage] aha ok
[Boeman] unique quests that are driven by game masters
[Mattt] What they need is a good variety of monsters
[ryme] make PvE fast paced like in diablo's
[RJO] with support
[Mattt] yes, and a storyline
[Kenolil-DV] repetitive can be fixed by giving you bonuses or incentive to move
from an area
[Silhouette] I concur RJO
[Dureal] The only way to do it right is to make leveling occur in the background
of some other larger goal. think a single player rpg like NWN
[Evin] RJO- couldn't agree more.
[RJO] a well backed storyline
[Boeman] rather than the old "I want to kill so and so"
[RJO] will fix the repetitive gap
[ryme] make downtime minimal
[DarkTrooper] give EXP for PvP
[Vehementi] But the problem is, it's difficult to have a "larger goal"
for 20k people
[[Quantum]] Leveling should be based on quests/tasks instead of killing monsters.
Monsters = Loot, Quests/Tasks = Experience. Both will be necessary, but not dependant
on each other.
[Nuke|UO] By having a large amount of depth like UO
[Slaive] Well, the storyline issue depends...
[RJO] if MMORPG companies stop thinking that live teams only have programmers
[Mattt] Thery have said monster killing will be more fast paced than other games.
For example, you won't spend 10 minutes attacking ONE skeleton, like in EQ.
[RJO] then we will be ok
[[A-X]whatisamage] well the only way that it could do that is to have a really
active quest-group that makes new quests and such all the time.....
[Slaive] If they actually build the storyline around the game... it will rock.
[RJO] that is what the industry needs.. live teams that bring storyline into play
[Vehementi] quantum: Agreed. Furthermore, one should never, ever have to do the
same quest twice.
[Kenolil-DV] If you're talking about a Dynamic Quest system, RJO, that's great,
but it's easier said then done
[Mattt] I agree, RJO.
[Aind] eq was fun
[Slaive] If they build the game around an arbitrarty storyline, you've got meaningless
backstory
[Aind] tons still play it
[Silhouette] i COncur
[Boeman] since this is warcraft, having large raids should be common and players
are summoned to defend an area
[[Quantum]] There should be like 12 quests for each level, and only like 4-5 required
to pass that level.
[Aind] so obviously they did something right
[DarkTrooper] In DAoC you kill in less then a minute, still high level exp grind
is awfull
[Kenolil-DV] Verant tried, I was part of that at times, but it's hard to organize,
and 90 percent of players will never see or hear of the stuff you do
[Nuke|UO] game depth beyond "kill this, get loot. do this get item"
[[Quantum]] You should ONLY include experience as a reward for quests though,
no loot or items.
[Aind] if eq had good pvp it would of been the best
[[Quantum]] Loot and items should come from monsters.
[Aind] but eq pvp sucks terrible
[Mattt] I think PvP will also add a lot into the game. BUT they need to get more
people into PvP.
[Slaive] Well, Nuke, there ain't much more than that in PvE
[Mattt] A lot of people are afraid of PvP after UO.
[Nuke|UO] by NOT being first person.
[Dureal] GM events in EQ were both rare and usually were to the tune of "How
many players can I kill with this superbeast"
[Aind] they tried i guess hehe
[Vehementi] quantum: If you do that, though, people will still just camp monsters
for items...
[Nuke|UO] slaive, create a viable economy
[[Quantum]] And there woul | | | |
