[20:15] <Kiir> Hello everyone and thanks for joining us for our third World of Warcraft community discussion. This is a community discussion so I am going to go over how it is going to work.

[20:16] <Kiir> What will happen is I will post a discussion question and unmoderate the room, we will then discuss that question for about 5 minutes, after that I will remoderate the room and post the next question for discussion

[20:17] <Kiir> Please try to stay on topic, and do not insult other in the channel, thank you and the first question is:

[20:17] <Kiir> Why do you think Blizzard decided to make WoW a mmorpg rather then a rpg/rts? What factors may have gone into the decision to make it massive multiplayer, rather then just stand-alone/small group multiplayer?

[20:17] <JimB> Money.

[20:17] <Sabin> Cause MMORPgs are grand

[20:17] <Yoyo|enlightened> money

[20:17] <JimB> Money, money, more money.

[20:17] <Sabin> and they have WC3 already ;/

[20:17] <Outsider> MMORPG= creating a world

[20:17] <[CT]TodesKopf> the income from a mmorpg is much greater

[20:17] <Lifey> money

[20:17] <DeusExMachina> everyones doing an mmorpg

[20:17] <Janguan> To maintain the sense of the massive nature of the wars portrayed in the other games.

[20:17] <WP_Apocalypse> lots of potential

[20:17] <JimB> And they have said a BILLION times that they are all EQ/DAoC addicts.

[20:17] <Dulahey> people like them better

[20:17] <JimB> Or were.

[20:18] <Yoyo|enlightened> plus it gives us remaining EQ folks a way out =P

[20:18] <_404Error_> Mmmm, Blizzard had to come to the next "level of gaming" I guess...

[20:18] <DeusExMachina> everyone else is doing it, so blizzards jumping on the bandwagon and making one too.

[20:18] <[CT]TodesKopf> it also cements their clientel and will draw in a group of players that hasnt used their products before

[20:18] <WP_Apocalypse> nah its more really that is the next level

[20:18] <_404Error_> yep, its what I'm thinking deusexmachina

[20:18] <Amathil> Blizz stands to hold a dominant stance if they do enough research. People tend to have many common complaints amongst MMORPGs, so if Blizz can really assess how to correct those problems, they can dominate the MMORPG market

[20:18] <Sabin> I agree.

[20:18] <Outsider> MMORPG are a modern way of playing

[20:18] <Razoth> MMORPGs are more in depth, players can finally "become" a part of the warcraft world.. however yes the end reason is money

[20:18] <_404Error_> yeah

[20:18] <Janguan> Right on, Amathil.

[20:18] <wulvyrn> it is much harder to cheat with mmorpg games and i see many mmorpgs coming out

[20:18] <WP_Apocalypse> yeah first there were single player games, than multiplayer, and mmog are just the next level

[20:18] <Amathil> MMORPGs are the new style of game. Now you can escape from the real world... into another world

[20:18] <XRedAshesX> Making warcraft into an MMORPG is a no-brainer.

[20:19] <JimB> If Blizzard ever wizens up and supports the community. It can do well.

[20:19] <DeusExMachina> werd, jimb

[20:19] <Outsider> Amathil: that could be not so good

[20:19] <WP_Apocalypse> and furthermore the market is now start to accepting paying a monthy fee

[20:19] <Keystone> i think they'll do great with wow..considering they have quite a few high end gamers on the team

[20:19] <[CT]TodesKopf> yep

[20:19] <Janguan> Yeah, they're community contact is kinda ... terrible.

[20:19] <XRedAshesX> Blizzard usually does a good job with community.

[20:20] <Kiir> Since WoW is going to have new and different items such as zepplins, submarines and guns, how do you think this will change gameplay from the more traditional medieval mmorpgs?

[20:20] <Sabin> Zeppelins arent new.

[20:20] <Yoyo|enlightened> gonna make some interesting balancing work

[20:20] <DeusExMachina> neither are guns, anarchy online has guns

[20:20] <Sabin> WC has guns.

[20:20] <Mattt> Zeppelins are new to the MMOG world

[20:20] <Sabin> Gunmen ;/

[20:20] <Grey> ewwww sabin

[20:20] <XRedAshesX> It would add a lot more for us to play with :)

[20:20] <Sabin> oh yeah mmog..

[20:20] <Kiir> yeah but anarachy online isn't a medievil mmorpg

[20:21] <Mattt> And guns are new to medieval ;)

[20:21] <Cid{FYD}> Pfft, guns, I'm outta here

[20:21] <Amathil> you have to make sure that they don't get out of control

[20:21] <Morgana> Is this a mmog or an mmorpg

[20:21] <Watcher> I mean if the combat was all long range then itd be different

[20:21] <WP_Apocalypse> mmorpg

[20:21] <Watcher> but since a lot of the weapons are close combat anyways

[20:21] <Flarestar> Vehicles always change things a bit.

[20:21] <Yoyo|enlightened> horizons claims to have dragons, though that game will be lucky to get finished in 20 years

[20:21] <JimB> Well, so far guns are just ranged weapons and the vehicles havent been said to be player-controlled. Frankly, I don't think either are revolutionary.

[20:21] <Watcher> its just like adding new archery weapons

[20:21] <Flarestar> But on the whole it won't make a great deal of difference.

[20:21] <[CT]TodesKopf> WC isnt strictly a medieval rpg. the universe started as that, but snice WC2, the technologies and magic have diffirentiated it from a standard

[20:21] <Keystone> just going to be another thing to figure in when playing the high end game imo....it basically all comes down to the math however you program it..you'll need x dps and x many people to kill said mob

[20:21] <_404Error_> I just wish that ranged weapons won't take on Melee weapons

[20:21] <Sabin> I want a jet

[20:21] <DeusExMachina> i agree with jimb

[20:21] <Yoyo|enlightened> there is no such thing as an mmorpg, you can't get that many players to keep the rp aspect of the game

[20:21] <Keystone> unless there is some way around that..that i can't see

[20:21] <Kheldon> MMOG is short for the general type of games...then you just add RPG, RTS FPS...etc

[20:21] <Janguan> Guns have to be treated like different arrows... maybe terrible accuracy, but if it hits, it HITS.

[20:21] <XRedAshesX> Yea, that wouldn't work out too well, having guns and melee weapons..

[20:22] <Yoyo|enlightened> ther'es till niches of it, but the entire game just doesn't work out that way

[20:22] <Watcher> it would work

[20:22] <Mattt> Yoyo, regular RPGs have nothing to do with RP either. ;p

[20:22] <Watcher> Because its just like new archery weapons

[20:22] <wulvyrn> this should allow a greater appeal to more people as to expand the fantasy feel from not just a D&D world but to an advanced fantasy world

[20:22] <DeusExMachina> theres no way they could have both guns and bows in the same mmorpg

[20:22] <Rasir> Guns are projectile weapons just like magic and arrows

[20:22] <DeusExMachina> thats just retarded

[20:22] <Amathil> I think that it's definitely a step in the right direction. Keeping variety in a game is incredibly important, and you have to make sure that you, at minimum, allow the players to have a varied way of playing. Otherwise, you just get a run-to-the-mileforts like in DAoC

[20:22] <Watcher> thats like saying archery wont work with melee because its long range

[20:22] <XRedAshesX> Yea, but they're guns.

[20:22] <Sabin> I agree.

[20:22] <XRedAshesX> I mean c'mon

[20:22] <Yoyo|enlightened> heh, true. but you control that yourself. in mmo's, you can't control other players

[20:22] <XRedAshesX> Who wouldn't use a gun?

[20:22] <KingMolson> I definetly would

[20:22] <FleshMade[empty]> Cool

[20:22] <_404Error_> I wouldn't

[20:22] <Rasir> it depends on the positives and negatives of using the gun

[20:22] <DeusExMachina> what would the point be of a bow if you had a gun?

[20:22] <Mattt> You can have guns and bows. The Guns in Warcraft aren't -that- advanced.

[20:22] <Gilthas> We aren't talking semi-automatic 9mm ehre folks.

[20:22] <Rasir> you're talking about primitive dwarven gun techology, here

[20:22] <Razoth> guns dont belong in a medival fantasy setting

[20:22] <XRedAshesX> I know

[20:23] <Janguan> GAR! I'ma gonna chop your blunderbuss with me axe!

[20:23] <Gilthas> We're talking one-shot flint-lock style rifles.

[20:23] <DeusExMachina> thats the point razoth

[20:23] <XRedAshesX> I agree with razoth

[20:23] <Flarestar> Well, if it stays on level with regular Warcraft, they're fairly primitive guns, except for cannon. So provided that their accuracy was bad, chance for misfire or explosion was pretty decent, they won't be unbalanced.

[20:23] <Sabin> Yeah..

[20:23] <Caedar[SOT]> Testing?

[20:23] <KingMolson> Exactly, their just ancient guns almost guaranteed to miss.

[20:23] <Sabin> Ba!

[20:23] <Rasir> Guns don't belong? Tell that to the creators of wc2. I saw some guns in there.

[20:23] <KingMolson> well, probably not that bad

[20:23] <DeusExMachina> agreed flarestar

[20:23] <[CT]TodesKopf> we're not sure if there are non-combat skills in the game yet, although I sincerely doubt it will play any big role

[20:23] <[Z-I]Zulax> muskets, not modern guns =)

[20:23] <Janguan> Really, cannons have been in the universe for a LONG while, eh...

[20:23] <Flarestar> Exactly

[20:23] <KingMolson> I think blizzard will make a decent trade and crafting system

[20:23] <Kheldon> I hope so

[20:24] <XRedAshesX> Yea

[20:24] <Rasir> And the load times on flint & powder guns are atrocious

[20:24] <Dulahey> guns = NO

[20:24] <Mattt> We definitely are. WoW takes place after WC3. ;)

[20:24] <DeusExMachina> i agree with dulahey

[20:24] <_404Error_> I don't think that cannons will be in WoW...

[20:24] <Amathil> I think blizzard has a pretty good grasp on how to balance a game, so I don't think they'll let them get out of control

[20:24] <Jordan|Cash> wow looks l33t

[20:24] <[Z-I]Zulax> althou there aren't that much difference between guns and arrows, and projectile magic..

[20:24] <KingMolson> Well, cannons will exist in the game world

[20:24] <Mattt> I played War3 and I thought the guns fit just fine. I think they will in WoW too.

[20:24] <Rasir> Guns = necessary to retain the continuity and integrity of the Warcraft universe.

[20:24] <KingMolson> wether we'll get to use them or not

[20:24] <KingMolson> thats debateable

[20:24] <[CT]TodesKopf> I havent seen any range weapons, be they bows or guns in the screenshots or gameplay footage

[20:24] <XRedAshesX> Very true.

[20:24] <KingMolson> But back to the original point, adding new transport and new forms of archery weapons isnt revolutionary

[20:25] <Kiir> Should the gameworld be dependant on a player made economy and political structure?

[20:25] <Flarestar> No.

[20:25] <DeusExMachina> yes

[20:25] <Flarestar> No.

[20:25] <DeusExMachina> yes

[20:25] <XRedAshesX> yes and no

[20:25] <Mattt> Yes!

[20:25] <Mattt> and no

[20:25] <Kiir> explain?

[20:25] <Mattt> too

[20:25] <DeusExMachina> that would be awesome.

[20:25] <Amathil> It should have a good importance, but not be dominating

[20:25] <[CT]TodesKopf> yep

[20:25] <KingMolson> I believe a player made economy is the most interesting

[20:25] <Dulahey> yeah

[20:25] <DeusExMachina> it has to be controlled though

[20:26] <Dulahey> very much so

[20:26] <DeusExMachina> player made economies tend to be pretty bad.

[20:26] <Janguan> If Blizzard wants some control, then no, but if they want us to go amok, well...

[20:26] <KingMolson> It would allow players to affect the gameworld to a greater degree

[20:26] <Mattt> I think players should be given many tools to AFFECT the world but not to CREATE the world.

[20:26] <Tenuuro> It should with the basic help of npc economy

[20:26] <Dulahey> look at UO

[20:26] <Dulahey> it's all screwed up now

[20:26] <Morgana> As long as anarchists can't make too much of a difference on the playing of others

[20:26] <Mattt> Devs should still create content.

[20:26] <XRedAshesX> You can't really trust a community, especially if it is based on economy

[20:26] <KingMolson> And would mean they would feel more important

[20:26] <[Z-I]Zulax> it should be a close economic system, where money spend is money gone, or recycled as resouce else where

[20:26] <DeusExMachina> too much haxxor

[20:26] <_404Error_> Player made economy has do deal with inflation, when you get through it its kewl

[20:26] <Sabin> Mmm

[20:26] <wulvyrn> i say yes - it would be very interesting - and this does happen to a point now in diablo ii where you trade for only the most wanted items

[20:26] <Amathil> You can't make player-made weapons the most powerful. Drops need to be the best, but players should still be able to influence the world

[20:26] <[Z-I]Zulax> so people dont' have 2 billion dollars and nothing to buy

[20:26] <DeusExMachina> player made politics would be interesting to see

[20:26] <[CT]TodesKopf> player made economies are a great idea, but the rarely work out. only if someone keeps a tight control on it will it ever flourish

[20:26] <KingMolson> thats always been a problem, single player you can be the hero but in an MMORPG you havent really been able to affect the world

[20:26] <Flarestar> Actually, to clarify, under no circumstances. It should be balanced, but not wholly dependent. If the game is wholly dependent on the players for economy and politics, you're going to have to implement a large number of automatic limitations and controls.

[20:26] <DeusExMachina> kind of like DAOC's realm system only it would WORK

[20:26] <Mattt> Player made economies can work if they aren't destroyed by things like Trammel and dupe bugs.

[20:26] <DeusExMachina> wouldnt that be awesome

[20:26] <Yoyo|enlightened> mmo's always need to have a player run economy

[20:26] <KingMolson> so It would be more enjoyable to make economies/ politics player run

[20:27] <DeusExMachina> blizzard sucks at catching bugs and hacks

[20:27] <Yoyo|enlightened> politics ... not so sure on

[20:27] <XRedAshesX> Heh

[20:27] <Flarestar> Economy, possibly. Politics, God no.

[20:27] <XRedAshesX> No politics.

[20:27] <KingMolson> MMORPGs are easier to get cheat free because of the server system involved

[20:27] <DeusExMachina> dude political control would be revolutionary

[20:27] <Dulahey> No politics

[20:27] <Amathil> Politics are a bad idea

[20:27] <Flarestar> Sullon Zek server in EverQuest is a very prime example of why player run politics are bad.

[20:27] <KingMolson> most of the game mechanics are on the server side

[20:27] <Sanaleb> blizz catches them they just can't fix them fast enough

[20:27] <DeusExMachina> its never really been executed successfully

[20:27] <XRedAshesX> They would have politics screwed up the first week.

[20:27] <Amathil> the problem is voting blocks

[20:27] <Yoyo|enlightened> you cannot stop hacks on a client side game, it's not possible

[20:27] <DeusExMachina> blizzards pretty good as far as new ideas go, i want to see what they can do with this.

[20:27] <Caedar[SOT]> ATITD has more politics than you could ever imagine. :P

[20:28] <Silorm> go look in bazaar zone on any non pvp server Flarestar and see how well player economy's run :)

[20:28] <wulvyrn> what kind of politics are we talking about? electing kings or guilds or what kind of higher orders?

[20:28] <KingMolson> Well, who says it should be democratic anyways

[20:28] <XRedAshesX> Hehe

[20:28] <Dulahey> lol

[20:28] <KingMolson> name one democracy in medieval times?

[20:28] <Dulahey> Commies

[20:28] <Amathil> politics are just asking for trouble. Plain and simple

[20:28] <[CT]TodesKopf> politics are always run to some degree by the powerful guilds, but to leave it completely in their hands would be folly

[20:28] <DeusExMachina> it should be run by the highest levels.

[20:28] <Flarestar> Silorm, I play on a blue server.

[20:28] <Dareus> KingMolson-Venice

[20:28] <KingMolson> it would be more fun if it was more feudal

[20:28] <DeusExMachina> haha

[20:28] <XRedAshesX> True.

[20:28] <Dulahey> lol

[20:28] <KingMolson> That was more renaisance.

[20:28] <Amathil> Politics happen by themselves -- no need to make them more influential than they already can be

[20:28] <Yoyo|enlightened> politics might work out in a pure pvp game (much like shadowbane). in a game that's restricted, you really don't have any enforcement of political rules

[20:28] <Dareus> KingMolson-it began before the renaisance

[20:29] <Dareus> I can look up the the exact date if you wish ;)

[20:29] <DeusExMachina> politics should be more controlled by blizzard, while the economy should be left up to the players-controlling inflation for example would help balance the economy

[20:29] <boridi|MLF> lotsa politics in daoc

[20:29] <boridi|MLF> hehe

[20:29] <XRedAshesX> I agree

[20:29] <DeusExMachina> boridi, the politics in daoc are worthless

[20:29] <KingMolson> Heh dareus, fine I believe you :)

[20:29] <DeusExMachina> the realm/relic system is a miserable failure

[20:29] <Tchrin> Not as much Politics as there is in ATITD

[20:29] <boridi|MLF> yeah

[20:29] <Janguan> There are a lot of politics in DAoC, but they are worthless, true.

[20:29] <Zul> daoc has little or no politics compared to games like eq [20:29] <KingMolson> but seriously does masses of orcs stand in a voting line?

[20:30] <boridi|MLF> but you got like inner realm fights hhehe

[20:30] <Zul> and on eq servers w/o pvp

[20:30] <KingMolson> really satisfy the storyline

[20:30] <Mattt> Just because one game doesn't something wrong, doesn't mean it can't be done right.

[20:30] <XRedAshesX> Just leave politics to blizzard

[20:30] <KingMolson> and atmosphere

[20:30] <Aragwen> omg realm/relic system is great in daoc.

[20:30] <DeusExMachina> rofl molson

[20:30] <Kiir> who said it ha to be a voting line

[20:30] <Kiir> politics could be me strong orc me rule now

[20:30] <Sabin> relic :>

[20:30] <Mattt> yeah

[20:30] <Sanaleb> politics mean nothing ;p

[20:30] <Yoyo|enlightened> politics is a rather broad word

[20:30] <Mattt> Orcish clan leaders!

[20:30] <XRedAshesX> lol

[20:30] <Amathil> Politics don't belong in the players' hands

[20:30] <Sanaleb> and i play in a 4 team guild on a racewar server ;)

[20:30] <DeusExMachina> they could make the game interesting

[20:30] <KingMolson> Yeah, that would be a good way of doing it actually, people with power, take power

[20:30] <Janguan> Me stronger orc, ME rule now! You much stronger orc... me run now...

[20:30] <Dareus> Well orcs would probably fall more under a tribal political structure

[20:30] <DeusExMachina> yeah.

[20:30] <XRedAshesX> haha

[20:30] <KingMolson> so the older players with less left to do could become politicaly influential

[20:30] <Kiir> exactly

[20:30] <Caedar[SOT]> Amathil, they do in ATITD. Any player can change the world through the law system.

[20:30] <DeusExMachina> different political structure for different races.

[20:31] <Amathil> hmm..

[20:31] <DeusExMachina> they should have four realms, a la daoc

[20:31] <Kiir> nothing said means that it has to be a democratic or republic voting system

[20:31] <wulvyrn> i'd go a system like we have here on earth - if the strong can rule, they do - if they have to be elected or you can form your own guilds - you can do that too

[20:31] <DeusExMachina> but leave more of the control as far as inner realm politics goes up to players

[20:31] <_404Error_> Caedar, you're the dude from ATITD community?

[20:31] <Kiir> politics could be me the strongest ruler me take over this land

[20:31] <Amathil> The problem with politics is the possibility that someone could end up having too much power over the world.

[20:31] <Caedar[SOT]> 404Error, I'm quite involved, yes.

[20:31] <Tchrin> _404Error_ yeah he is, and me ;)

[20:31] <DeusExMachina> it should be a challenge based political system

[20:31] <XRedAshesX> Question: Will there be a story that is affected by the players?

[20:31] <_404Error_> kewl :D

[20:31] <Caedar[SOT]> I'm the 2nd longest tester.

[20:32] <Kiir> Do you think that the various races should gain and lose power based on the players success in the game and effect on the world?

[20:32] <DeusExMachina> yes.

[20:32] <Mattt> Yes!

[20:32] <Dulahey> YES!!!!!!!!!!!!

[20:32] <Yoyo|enlightened> no

[20:32] <XRedAshesX> Definently

[20:32] <Kheldon> Yup

[20:32] <Amathil> Do you mean races in general?

[20:32] <[CT]TodesKopf> no

[20:32] <DeusExMachina> why not yoyo?

[20:32] <Corona> no

[20:32] <Flarestar> Define power, please.

[20:32] <Mattt> Races as in groups of races, I'd imagine

[20:32] <Silorm> yes

[20:32] <Yoyo|enlightened> true, define power

[20:32] <Sanaleb> no

[20:32] <Mattt> say like nations

[20:32] <[Z-I]Zulax> yep define power

[20:32] <Mattt> power could mean different things

[20:32] <KingMolson> Yeah I do, but in a way that doesnt ultimately destroy the play experience of newbies of the weaker races

[20:32] <DeusExMachina> military or economic power?

[20:33] <Derkas> Yes, the game shouldn't just single characters out and affect them but to affect en mass

[20:33] <Sanaleb> i don't want my race to get worse because other people suck :p

[20:33] <Kiir> Hmm let's go with both

[20:33] <Grey> numbers are power

[20:33] <Mattt> For example, a race in power may get items for less money

[20:33] <Zul[CQ]> So kiir do you mean to say the a guild would be confined to only one race? or side?

[20:33] <[CT]TodesKopf> you'd end up with players joining the strong races, and the system unbalancing extremely fast

[20:33] <Dulahey> if 98% of the people are playing humans, and controlling the world they should be reduced

[20:33] <Yoyo|enlightened> if you mean all your spells / melee starts doing less damage because you happen to be on a weaker "team"

[20:33] <Flarestar> Are we talking economic, military, skill, personal, what?

[20:33] <wulvyrn> cool idea - how are the front lines going to be affected i.e. how far do i travel to find more orcs

[20:33] <Razoth> nations should loose or gain power, but a race should not loose seeing in the dark because humans are too numerous :P

[20:33] <DeusExMachina> a la daoc yoyo =P

[20:33] <Grey> the race with more population with be the better

[20:33] <Yoyo|enlightened> yeh, not a big fan of that

[20:33] <Kiir> let's define power as economic and military

[20:33] <Flarestar> Economic, yes

[20:33] <Flarestar> Military, no

[20:33] <DeusExMachina> how would the economic power work?

[20:33] <Flarestar> Only in a general sense

[20:33] <DeusExMachina> perhaps have one big central government for each race, have each player pay taxes?

[20:34] <Dulahey> it could depend on your race and what part of the world you'rein

[20:34] <Mattt> Economic could be like the buying of items from an NPC

[20:34] <Flarestar> Economic power makes sense, if there's more of them, they'll gather more resources and have a better financial foothold.

[20:34] <KingMolson> Power is the ability to control, so I dont think we'd be talking about economic or political but merely of dominance.

[20:34] <wulvyrn> with a player based economy and military - is this question mute?

[20:34] <Kheldon> cheaper for crafters of that race? discounts from NPCs maybe?

[20:34] <XRedAshesX> Taxes?

[20:34] <DeusExMachina> sure,

[20:34] <Flarestar> As well as be able to get better trade deals.

[20:34] <XRedAshesX> Hmmm

[20:34] <DeusExMachina> taxes is a decent idea.

[20:34] <Dulahey> orcs in human territory/ human in orc territory

[20:34] <XRedAshesX> I see how that would owrk.

[20:34] <Corona> no, as its nearly impossible to balance classes (both in class balance as well as population balance), adding a power swing would complicate things further -- eventually you are left with an overabundance of one class or alliance which consistently tilts the power to thier side, thus making them even more powerful

[20:34] <Janguan> Agh! First my tithes as a Paladin, and now taxes to my King! ARGH!

[20:34] <XRedAshesX> work*

[20:34] <Yoyo|enlightened> i could see getting maybe an extra ability, or something like that if you were on a powerful side

[20:34] <Amathil> Military power based on race is the cycle of nerfs in DAoC. It fails, because population shifts change the apparent balance of a race/class

[20:34] <Mattt> Of course, then everyone would make that race

[20:34] <Yoyo|enlightened> but i dont think it should be much more than something to play with

[20:34] <XRedAshesX> Deus that would work.

[20:34] <DeusExMachina> i think so red ashes.

[20:35] <Janguan> Can't make it work, because if you look at it in real life, people that get power start crushing others and repressing them.

[20:35] <Razoth> Janguan: you should be happy thats all the penalties you have, for all those paladin power s:P

[20:35] <DeusExMachina> of course there would have to be a penalty for not paying taxes...

[20:35] <XRedAshesX> Yea.

[20:35] <Sabin|Homework> ;/

[20:35] <DeusExMachina> like maybe you cant log on for a day or something

[20:35] <Dulahey> i think it should all be balanced

[20:35] <XRedAshesX> lol, no that wouldn't be good.

[20:35] <Aragwen> lol deus

[20:35] <Kiir> shoudl be able to log in

[20:35] <Mattt> Making it so you can't log on wouldn't work

[20:36] <Mattt> and everyone hates taxes, so I'm not sure they'd be a good idea

[20:36] <XRedAshesX> Taking gold?

[20:36] <Mattt> maybe if it was a tax on goods you buy

[20:36] <[MTF]Innerwar> taxes

[20:36] <KingMolson> Well, taxes and laws are just where one group has control over another and forces rules onto them and takes their goods

[20:36] <XRedAshesX> or an item?

[20:36] <[MTF]Innerwar> protection money

[20:36] <Kiir> but maybe you are put in a debtors prison and forced to work off your debt under the might overlord

[20:36] <Mattt> rather than a tax you must pay every so often

[20:36] <Derkas> you can't stop people from playing

[20:36] <[MTF]Innerwar> are there safe zones in wowc?

[20:36] <DeusExMachina> how else would they have a race wide economy?

[20:36] <Razoth> if there were taxes id become like robin hood

[20:36] <KingMolson> So if you didnt want to listen to some ones laws or taxes

[20:36] <[MTF]Innerwar> if no tax pay = no safe

[20:36] <[MTF]Innerwar> :P

[20:36] <XRedAshesX> lol raz

[20:36] <KingMolson> they should have to enforce it with brute strength

[20:36] <KingMolson> not game mechanics

[20:36] <[MTF]Innerwar> i dunno

[20:36] <Amathil> molson -- good thought

[20:36] <DeusExMachina> yeah maybe if you dont pay "tribute" to your race the guards dont protect you

[20:36] <wulvyrn> i'd move out in the woods before paying my debt

[20:36] <DeusExMachina> or the merchants give you higher prices

[20:37] <[MTF]Innerwar> basically a bunch of subtle problems

[20:37] <[MTF]Innerwar> and a general sour edge

[20:37] <DeusExMachina> theres a sour edge to every game

[20:37] <Flarestar> As far as taxes.... paying taxes implies that you're under the protection and aligned with the person you're paying them to. So if they don't pay taxes, just have the guards become neutral to them, won't help, won't hurt. If their race is inclined to not be too friendly, could even have them go hostile.

[20:37] <XRedAshesX> Maybe add a charm factor.

[20:37] <Kiir> the guildmaster is less likely to give you a quest, since you haven't paid your due to the town?

[20:37] <Aragwen> aggred

[20:37] <Aragwen> agreed*

[20:37] <Razoth> id live in the woods aswell, however when i needed supplies from town i had better be able to wear a cloak and sneak in.. they could make it dumb and the guards automatically know you didnt pay taxes by the color of your cloak :P

[20:37] <Janguan> But what happens when some newbie starts playing and doesn't realize that they're getting behind and then get nailed over it? It's Bliz and they appease the casual player.

[20:37] <DeusExMachina> kiir and flare have it.

[20:38] <wulvyrn> if one needs supplies out in the wild, make friends with orcs even

[20:38] <DeusExMachina> mmorpgs arent designed for casual players

[20:38] <Mattt> Yes they are

[20:38] <Mattt> look at UO

[20:38] <XRedAshesX> Yea, that's true.

[20:38] <Mattt> Maybe newbies don't have to pay taxes for the first week/month/something.

[20:38] <[MTF]Innerwar> they should at least let casual players get a kick out of it regardless

[20:39] <Kiir> What can WoW do to make guilds a more integrated part of the world?

[20:40] <Sabin|Homework> Mm.

[20:40] <Mattt> Make many options (e.g. customizability)

[20:40] <DeusExMachina> let the guilds have their own economy

[20:40] <Amathil> Hmm

[20:40] <Mattt> Make them more like UO than EQ.

[20:40] <DeusExMachina> and guild relations with one another

[20:40] <Yoyo|enlightened> guild halls, as they've promised for d2 =)

[20:40] <KingMolson> Give them more ability to control aspects of the world

[20:40] <Janguan> Guild quests?

[20:40] <[MTF]Innerwar> A "simple" thing is guild towns

[20:40] <Mattt> Yeah, guildhalls like D2. lol

[20:40] <KingMolson> such as town buildings, npc groups and such

[20:40] <[MTF]Innerwar> starwars galaxies are doing this

[20:40] <DeusExMachina> yeah UO guilds own

[20:40] <DeusExMachina> UO had the right idea as far as guilds go

[20:40] <KingMolson> that would be another good way of allowing player politics

[20:40] <Flarestar> 1) Allow a structure to be built for the guild, along with a permanent room to store gear and equipment

[20:40] <Yoyo|enlightened> some sort of in game tracking, to see who is guilded, when they were last on, etc

[20:40] <KingMolson> let guilds control aspects of the world

[20:40] <Dulahey> i like UO guilds

[20:40] <KingMolson> some become huge and seem like nations

[20:41] <KingMolson> but others might remain fairly small and even become vasals to larger guilds

[20:41] <XRedAshesX> Make it so Guilds can build cities and towns and so-forth.

[20:41] <Flarestar> 2) Allow guilds to have some influence over local politics, namely NPC reactions to you and merchant dealings.

[20:41] <Dulahey> yeah

[20:41] <Kheldon> Integrated systems for guilds, alliances, treassuries, enemyguilds

[20:41] <KingMolson> Then players in the guilds decide wether to be democratic or not

[20:41] <DeusExMachina> ties into politics-perhaps the most powerful guild in military and economics is the head of the race/kingdom/realm or whatever

[20:41] <Aragwen> guilds will be able to build buildings and control mines that will vitally effect the world around

[20:41] <Dulahey> let guilds control an area of land

[20:41] <wulvyrn> guilds to serve as a resouce for training, buying, selling, quests, etc. - but have many quilds or customize them so there is a good choice among many guilds

[20:41] <Dulahey> make their own towns

[20:41] <KingMolson> I mean the only way to integrate something furhter into the world is to give it more freedom to affect it

[20:41] <XRedAshesX> Make he guild settlement customizable.

[20:41] <DeusExMachina> guilds should have their own towns.

[20:42] <KingMolson> Guilds should be able to take control of both player and NPC towns/ buildings or areas

[20:42] <Derkas> if guilds can control lands could they also lose lands?

[20:42] <KingMolson> paying for the guards and possibly taxing

[20:42] <DeusExMachina> the guild format should be similar to the town building format in war3

[20:42] <[MTF]Innerwar> guild ratings affect prices for relevant items?

[20:42] <Flarestar> Should be able to have more than a town, if you really want to come down to it. A strong guild should have the ability to have their own stronghold.

[20:42] <Razoth> I dont think the world would be big enough for each guild to get its own towns.. not unless you wanted the whole world to be a metropolis

[20:42] <Kiir> i think if you can control land you shoudl be able to lose land

[20:42] <KingMolson> they could task the guards to collect money from shop owners

[20:42] <Janguan> Say a fairly powerful guild starts getting a good amount of prestige, a King might implore them to play as guardians his kingdom.

[20:42] <Dulahey> maybe control the amount of guilds

[20:42] <XRedAshesX> Make it so other guilds can take it over.

[20:42] <Mattt> Make it so you can submit customized stuff for your guild (e.g. guild symbol). To reduce the number of submissions, make a minimum guild size required for submission, based on server size.

[20:42] <Dulahey> like factions

[20:42] <Dulahey> but have MANY factions

[20:42] <DeusExMachina> would the king be an npc or a player?

[20:42] <wulvyrn> i like the town idea but i like to be around a place where i can trade this for that - i.e. i'm a big warriro and i have this really cool staff i can't use but i can sell it to a another warrior or b a wizard?

[20:43] <Flarestar> Question: will players be able to be effective merchants in WoW?

[20:43] <XRedAshesX> That would be cool.

[20:43] <Dulahey> the king could be a person, but it would have to be a very dedicated person

[20:43] <KingMolson> Another good aspect of the guilds running politics would be that

[20:43] <Mattt> No idea, Flarestar, but let's keep on topic pls. :)

[20:43] <Yoyo|enlightened> The Bazaar version 2? =)

[20:43] <Flarestar> It is on topic, actually.

[20:43] <KingMolson> people who dont want to participate in any violence just dont join a guild

[20:43] <Janguan> NPC more likely.

[20:44] <DeusExMachina> a player king would be cool, no matter how impossible =P

[20:44] <KingMolson> It really wouldnt be impossible to have a player king.

[20:44] <XRedAshesX> Deus, that would be kinda tough on the player who is king.

[20:44] <KingMolson> a player guild would sieze power by controling other guilds and towns and such

[20:44] <Dulahey> like i said, it would have to be a very dedicated person

[20:44] <KingMolson> then the leader of the guild could call himself king of the area

[20:44] <Mattt> A player king would have toooo much power, though.

[20:44] <wulvyrn> guilds or belongs to guilds should give you economic bonuses or taxes around the land

[20:44] <DeusExMachina> they could do kind of a UO lord british kinda thing

[20:45] <KingMolson> making up boundaries by the places he controls.

[20:45] <XRedAshesX> Yea

[20:45] <Yoyo|enlightened> i think player built cities just cause too many headaches

[20:45] <KingMolson> Well, the balance of power shifts quickly as new guilds arise

[20:45] <Derkas> could there be ways for guilds to indirectly affect other guilds?

[20:45] <Mattt> Player built cities can work if designed correctly (e.g. SWG).

[20:45] <KingMolson> his power wouldnt be in his own hands but the hands of his suporters

[20:45] <Derkas> meaning, no actualy guild war?

[20:45] <DeusExMachina> the only game that has successfully executed or even attempted player build cities that i know of is UO

[20:45] <Yoyo|enlightened> if there are a set # of cities that can be controlled, maybe

[20:45] <KingMolson> if he lost support he would lose power

[20:45] <Dulahey> i think guild members should just be able to build their houses near each other

[20:45] <Yoyo|enlightened> but allowing players to build their own

[20:45] <XRedAshesX> You could maybe make a guild a leader?

[20:45] <[MTF]Innerwar> SWG handles the player city "problem" with giving players a set of predefined house plans and the like

[20:45] <Mattt> UO hasn't attempted player built cities

[20:45] <Mattt> only player built housing

[20:45] <[MTF]Innerwar> which is a fairly simple way of doing it

[20:46] <Kiir> The previous Warcraft games had a class system in that certain units could do certain things. Other MMORPGS go with a skill system where what you can do is only limited by your skills. In other words, to become a Blademaster, do you think you should have to choose that class and build up to it? Or should any orc who chooses the right skills, eventually "become" a Blademaster?

[20:47] <Kheldon> Would be cool with a system where you lvled and gained pracs, but to learn skills you'd have to find tutors or other players, and then getting them taught to you, and after that you can spend pracs to raise those skills, keeping it skillbased with lvls to 'control' it someway...maybe but not class system :P

[20:47] <Mattt> Class based = bad!

[20:47] <wulvyrn> i like the latter much better

[20:47] <Kheldon> Yeah, Mattt pretty much wrapped it up :P

[20:47] <Mattt> lol

[20:47] <Yoyo|enlightened> class based is nice for lazy folk like me

[20:47] <Dulahey> i like how UO does it

[20:47] <wulvyrn> skills should make you a class not the other way around

[20:47] <Mattt> Class based is harder, I find

[20:47] <Kiir> i kind of like a basic class concept

[20:47] <Kahveen2> Skill based system are very very very hard to get right - and are rarely dont right

[20:47] <Razoth> class systems always work best, otherwise you get these characters that can do every thing

[20:47] <Yoyo|enlightened> skill based has a number of problems

[20:47] <Mattt> I like customizing my class

[20:47] <Yoyo|enlightened> including people with the ability to do everything

[20:47] <Kiir> that can learn skills from other areas just not necisarily as well as those of other classes

[20:47] <Kahveen2> Depending on PCs to train - would introduce a problem of elite stratification

[20:47] <KingMolson> My personal favorite system has skills so that you can choose the type of character you want to play

[20:47] <Yoyo|enlightened> and devs changing skills that have been gained

[20:48] <KingMolson> but within the skills are ability trees

[20:48] <DeusExMachina> im out guys, see ya later

[20:48] <Derkas> I'd rather like to see classes handled like D&D 3rd edition

[20:48] <Yoyo|enlightened> so suddenly you find yourself useless

[20:48] <Kahveen2> Basically NO matter what you dod - people WILL make classes

[20:48] <Mattt> Characters can't do everything if you limit how many skills osmeone can get.

[20:48] <KingMolson> so you learn abilities instead of just numbers

[20:48] <Kahveen2> By doing it yourself - you can balance etc

[20:48] <Derkas> each level you chose a class to gain in

[20:48] <Yoyo|enlightened> the problem is balancing those skills

[20:48] <wulvyrn> blizzard does skills very well - so i could see if you pick x y and z - then you get a bonus for becoming this class

[20:48] <Yoyo|enlightened> and how many you can get

[20:48] <Kahveen2> The chances of you balancing every permutation of a skill set is unlikely

[20:48] <Yoyo|enlightened> they're already going to be lucky to get the game out before 2004

[20:49] <Kiir> I kind of liked the diablo system actually

[20:49] <Yoyo|enlightened> optimal, IMO, is some sort of system that pre-defines classes

[20:49] <Yoyo|enlightened> and allows you an amount of customization

[20:49] <Kiir> You chose your class then chose what to specialize in

[20:49] <Janguan> Diablo was actually a nice skill system.

[20:49] <Mattt> I dislike the level-based Diablo system.

[20:49] <Dulahey> diablo system is bad

[20:49] <Kahveen2> Class speciailization is not bad

[20:49] <Mattt> Levels and classes are a thing of the past!

[20:49] <Mattt> hehe

[20:49] <Derkas> i think the other games blizzard makes are too restrivtive when implementing them to mmorpg

[20:49] <Amathil> Remember Blizzard's stance on characters... they like to have you make an archetypal character, and you can customize yourself from there.

[20:50] <Mattt> True

[20:50] <Derkas> those systems are very similar to DaoC, which I wouldn't care for

[20:50] <wulvyrn> even bioware is thinking of making a skill based game

[20:50] <Janguan> Here's a thought: when beginning you choose two or three areas to learn in, one primary, one secondary, one tertiary. They raise naturally, and the combinations are more predictible.

[20:50] <Mattt> But would that fit for an MMOG, Amathil? I don't know.

[20:50] <Dulahey> actually i like the diablo CLASS style but not the diablo LEVEL style

[20:50] <Kahveen2> skill based system have universally sucked

[20:50] <Derkas> I just don't like the fact that once you're a barbarian you'll always be one

[20:50] <Kiir> As long as each class doesn't have one optimal skill progression path i like the skill progression after chosing class system

[20:50] <Yoyo|enlightened> optimally a pure skill based system, that is well balanced, is the best

[20:50] <Yoyo|enlightened> but so far noone has come close to putting that in

[20:51] <Derkas> especially if there are just a handfull of classes to chose from

[20:51] <Kahveen2> Yoyo - almost impossible to manage

[20:51] <Yoyo|enlightened> agreed

[20:51] <Kahveen2> CAuse you have then balance every permutation of that skill set

[20:51] <Yoyo|enlightened> but, someone has to try to get games there eventually

[20:51] <Kahveen2> My example would be healing and AC

[20:51] <boridi|MLF> diablo class system was nice

[20:51] <[MTF]Innerwar> what about a fallout style SPECIAL system?

[20:51] <boridi|MLF> unlike daoc

[20:51] <boridi|MLF> you can go diff paths

[20:51] <boridi|MLF> instead of the uber spec you have to go or you suck.

[20:51] <Lancelot> so?

[20:51] <Lancelot> started?

[20:51] <Kahveen2> Had to restart my character on AC cause I didnt choose healing early enough

[20:51] <Dulahey> i still think the UO style is by far the best

[20:52] <Derkas> diablo class system is too restrictive for a mmorpg

[20:52] <Janguan> In DAoC, there are some good specs and some great specs and a lot of not so bad specs. Certain classes suffered more or less.

[20:52] <Yoyo|enlightened> that's EQ's latest problems with class balancing. they just keep changing things trying to get it just right, and aren't really having much luck landing it

[20:52] <Kahveen2> UO style is a simplistic

[20:52] <boridi|MLF> but i never played any other mmorpgs besides daoc :\par[20:52] <wulvyrn> i still play d2 - but i'd like more skills choice to devel my character better

[20:52] <Mattt> In any case, I think you need to be able to UNDO your choices. Games where you spend a skill point and then have to restart when you screwed up are not good.

[20:52] <Derkas> UO is a use based system. Even though good for UO noone has done that system again

[20:52] <Kahveen2> Class systems allow you to balance much easier though

[20:52] <boridi|MLF> like respec

[20:52] <boridi|MLF> butttttt

[20:52] <Janguan> Respec is MANDATORY.

[20:52] <boridi|MLF> daoc screwed that up

[20:53] <wulvyrn> i've played ao mostly beta for a year - but i say no hack and slash - go skill based and reward for using those skills

[20:53] <Dulahey> well UO is good in that you can pick whatever you want, and you can alter one part of your character later on

[20:53] <Dulahey> you aren't restricted

[20:53] <Mattt> Yes, UO is good in that respect.

[20:53] <Kahveen2> XP for skill use is tricky

[20:53] <Mattt> I like the UO2/SWG system.

[20:53] <Kahveen2> And will most likely leave holes a mile wide for exploitation

[20:54] <Kiir> Should there be avenues for players to express their character's personality through gameplay? ...and if so what?

[20:54] <Janguan> Social animations!

[20:54] <Dulahey> YES

[20:54] <wulvyrn> emotes

[20:54] <Yoyo|enlightened> speech?

[20:54] <Kahveen2> definitively

[20:54] <Amathil> emote me, baby

[20:54] <Lancelott> can anyone tell me if the talking started?

[20:54] <Mattt> Many, many billions of emotes.

[20:54] <Dulahey> Role-Playing as much as possible

[20:54] <wulvyrn> i'd like to see voice to text

[20:54] <Derkas> I sure hope so Kiir

[20:54] <Kahveen2> What you want to allow is a script based system that would allow for IK blend of a set of basic movements

[20:54] <Mattt> I believe they shoudl allow for and give tools for role-playing but not enforce it in any way.

[20:55] <Kahveen2> That way people can create there own as well as having a fixed set

[20:55] <Janguan> AO's social animations were pretty good.

[20:55] <Derkas> I hope every arch-type character can distinguish themselves from another char from the same arch-type

[20:55] <Dareus> Hehe speech is a double edged sword, especially when most of the female characters in the game are guys ; ). However, a system with that option would be interesting.

[20:55] <boridi|MLF> hahaha

[20:55] <wulvyrn> role-playing should be rewarding -

[20:55] <Lancelott> hmmm

[20:55] <Dulahey> yes

[20:55] <Dulahey> but how?

[20:55] <Kahveen2> Emotes are just that - flavor

[20:55] <Lancelott> someone answer me plz

[20:55] <Amathil> role-playing leading to political power?

[20:55] <Mattt> I think a hugely important part will be character creation! You should be able to highly customize the look of your character!

[20:55] <Kahveen2> Should not be awarded other than from the social environment

[20:56] <Derkas> i'd like to see an improvement from just emotes to emote moods

[20:56] <Kahveen2> Video card prob;ems with that Mattt

[20:56] <Mattt> The vast majority of players do not role-play, sorry to say. So I don't think they would directly reward or enforce roleplaying.

[20:56] <Kiir> I want long hair

[20:56] <Dulahey> i agree with matt

[20:56] <Kahveen2> though definitely simple transformation of a set of models should be possible like in AO at minimum

[20:56] <Amathil> How about...

[20:56] <Mattt> True, Kahveen2 but it is time to buy a new video card. It will be 2004 at least when this game comes out. ;)

[20:56] <Kiir> almost no mmorpg has females with long hair

[20:56] <wulvyrn> Kiir: ditto

[20:56] <Kiir> and dang it that would be a nice social feature

[20:56] <Kheldon> I want to be able to cut Kiirs hair off in the game and leave her head smooth and shiny. *sagenod*

[20:57] <Mattt> lol

[20:57] <Kiir> See i want that ability too

[20:57] <Boomstick> yeah we need more hairy female avatars

[20:57] <Dulahey> lol

[20:57] <Kahveen2> But I like my idea for emotes =)

[20:57] <Kiir> the ability to alter your apperance in game would be nice

[20:57] <Dulahey> female tauren?

[20:57] <Dulahey> lol

[20:57] <Kahveen2> Its probably the sweetest way of doing it ...

[20:57] <Amathil> in specific areas, your character can wear all kinds of clothing. These zones will be the non-killing zones, so that the loading for the extra animations would not interfere with people wanting to kill.

[20:57] <Kahveen2> And then people could trade there emotes as well =)

[20:57] <Yoyo|enlightened> if i see any more bearded female dwarves...

[20:57] <Kiir> I mean how many people do you know go through life with their hair exactly the same length or straight down every day?

[20:57] <Kahveen2> Aging is a double-edged sword

[20:57] <Kiir> I think they should include ways to redo your hair/apperance after character creation

[20:58] <Kheldon> True Kirr

[20:58] <Yoyo|enlightened> there are elements you just have to leave out

[20:58] <Mattt> Yes, they need to have haircutting as a trade skill.

[20:58] <Dulahey> lol

[20:58] <wulvyrn> Kiir: i like that idea

[20:58] <Dareus> Kiir-isn't SWG adding skills/professions just for that?

[20:58] <Kiir> maybe 3 or 4 different hair models that you can swap between depending on how your character was feeling

[20:58] <Dulahey> you should have to eat tho

[20:58] <Kahveen2> have a hair-dressing skill =)

[20:59] <Kiir> yes I agree you should have to eat a game doesn't feel real if your character doesn't eat

[20:59] <sebv> eating takes too much $$$

[20:59] <Kahveen2> rofl

[20:59] <Kahveen2> would depend what they're focusing on in the game

[20:59] <Kahveen2> long or short game play etc.

[20:59] <Kiir> yes but eating is a social part of life and is expected to happen in a game as well

[20:59] <Janguan> Eating CAN happen, but doesn't HAVE to.

[21:00] <Kahveen2> Not really

[21:00] <Amathil> how about... going into battle with a full stomach of well-prepared food allows for enhanced combat. I can imagine the chef-bots, haha

[21:00] <Kiir> sleeping takes away from fun but buying muffins or cookies for a copper or two add some realism

[21:00] <Dulahey> more of the role-playing stuff

[21:00] <Derkas> well, if you have a change of appearance than the rest of the avatar needs to be distinguishable so that people notice that you did change your hairstyle

[21:00] <Dareus> I think EQ actually did do a good job on making it so that foods give bonuses, but isn't completely required. I have to eat in rl, I play games to get away from rl ; ).

[21:00] <Kahveen2> In most cases eating in a game is, well just a nuisance

[21:01] <Kiir> okay continuing on this topic

[21:01] <Kiir> > What type of Social commands and animations do you hope to see in WoW? Not counting the generic ones such as smile, bow etc...

[21:01] <Janguan> Interactive social commands.

[21:02] <Kahveen2> As I said - would be best to create a system to allow people to create there own

[21:02] <Mattt> I do -NOT- want to see sexual social animations in the game.

[21:02] <Kahveen2> Transferring that back and forth really wouldnt be that bad

[21:02] <Amathil> How about combined anims?

[21:02] <sebv> i want taunting ones

[21:02] <Amathil> like dancing

[21:02] <wulvyrn> making your own - would not be a fun programming venture for the develo[21:02] <Derkas> i'd like the ability to change that ambient emotes and have several to fit your characters moods

[21:02] <Mattt> Making your own social animation would be tough

[21:02] <Mattt> unless it was a chain of pre-made ones

[21:03] <MrToad> And I ne