<Dariuas> Greetings one and all, my name is Dariuas and I will be your moderated for this evening.Thanks for joining us for our World of WarCraft Community Chat.To answer a few questions. No, we are not part of Blizzard, and we do not have anyone from Blizzard joining us this evening. This is a Community Chat, where you, the community get to discuss certain specific topics.

[02:01] <Dariuas> Following this comment a topic will be published. The channel will then become unmoderated and you can discuss that topic. Straying from that topic will result in removal from the remainder of the chat.

[02:01] <Dariuas> Before we begin, SirEndure will make a quick announcement
[02:02] <SirEndure> I would like to announce the development of The Brethren Clan Management System for World of Warcraft at http://brethren.borniasound.com
[02:02] <SirEndure> if you have any questions feel free to ask
[02:02] <Dariuas> Well, thanks for that announcement SirEndure. :)
[02:03] <Dariuas> Any how!

Official Factions
[02:03] <Dariuas> The first topic of tonights discussion is: Do you want official factions in the game? Why and why not?
[02:03] * Dariuas sets mode: -m
[02:03] <GorGor> no
[02:03] <agris> Yes
[02:03] <Snippa> no
[02:03] <Kak> YES
[02:03] <Kak> NO
[02:03] <Dupsi> yah if its done by race
[02:03] <Kak> MAYBE.
[02:03] <AdamWest> NO!@#$
[02:03] <GorGor> Guild vs Guild warfare is the best, screw the forced RvR bs
[02:03] <Darvin> Yes, it adds a depth
[02:03] <Anti-Gremlin> Race Factions yes, else no
[02:03] * Daylandicar has joined #WorldofWarcraft
[02:03] <Apricoth> Yes - official factions would create a different way to enable PvPing.
[02:03] <Dariuas> Why Apricoth?
[02:03] <cmthornton> yes of course
[02:03] <Anti-Gremlin> oh besides GvG of course
[02:03] <Eluna> Factions should be race based; then player factions can align along those lines.
[02:03] <GorGor> different ? most carebear games already do that
[02:04] <Apricoth> Factions can be oriented along with your guild, for example
[02:04] <Soun> ppl would whine about guild vs guild pvp, the game has to be retard-friendly to accomidate 90% of the games playerbase
[02:04] <tekforce> yea we can PVP right
[02:04] <tekforce> there is pvp
[02:04] <zigon> Yes, I think offical factions based on race would great for army battle events.
[02:04] <Jessica> yes, but still let players make their own guilds
[02:04] * Dariuas changes topic to 'Welcome to WoW Community Chat! After the chat watch for the log posted on http://wow.stratics.com'
[02:04] <tekforce> oh wait
[02:04] <Cha0sGrenade> So....could an orc be in a human faction?
[02:04] <tekforce> this is WOW
[02:04] <drakenbane|AFK> lol tekforce
[02:04] <FAWN> So can you be undead in WOW?
[02:04] <GorGor> well orcs are kinda allied with humans
[02:04] <Apricoth> If you are in a guild that is going to go against another guild, and you are trying to get into a particular guild, you gain that faction but lose faction with other guilds
[02:04] <Vlood> factions between playable races or all races in the game ??
[02:04] <LookOutForTheWam> Hi
[02:04] <Apricoth> Maybe a bit complexed, but hey
[02:04] <Snippa> I would only like factions if blizz set it up better than osi did with uo... if they gave you something you can actually gain from it.
[02:05] <Anti-Gremlin> yes, alliance to only one guild should exist. multiple guilds would just seem incorrect
[02:05] <Eluna> Race based factional warfare creates a large driving force that Bliz can manage; within that player guilds can align themselves with a faction, or perhaps try to place themselves outside of the main alliances.
[02:05] <Anti-Gremlin> OSI's method of factions was done wrong
[02:05] <Sabeth> I want factions. Nothing would be greater than fighting alongside a large group of Tauren crushing Elves beneath their hooves!
[02:05] <Apricoth> Yes, exactly what Eluna said. :)
[02:05] <Anti-Gremlin> i had more fun on Abyss
[02:05] * Phizar-[Rouq-50] has left #WorldofWarcraft
[02:05] <LookOutForTheWam> Will this game totally rule?
[02:05] <Dupsi> yes
[02:05] <LookOutForTheWam> Good
[02:05] <Daylandicar> Oh god, please no factions :( I'm having enough of those from EQ
[02:05] <Dupsi> indeed
[02:05] <Apricoth> If you have too many factions you can burden the player base and tick them off however.
[02:05] <GorGor> Ok as long as they make it so any G can atak any other G there can be factions for the people who like that
<AdamWest> is the combat automated?
<LookOutForTheWam> Cause I have it reserved.
<Apricoth> So, there has to be a balance of some sort.
<Bullet230> I know that factions in EQ sucked the big one.. if they could manage factions better.. then maybe... but for the most part factions are the most annoying and biggest waste of time
<Apricoth> How many factions should be taken heed before it becomes overwhelming? Hard to say
<Cha0sGrenade> I would agree....that EQs factions system was lame
<Darvin> Yes to factions, only if: You get faction points for being part of that factions, ect.
<Apricoth> <nod nod>
<GorGor> WoW doesnt have that many races rememebr hehe
<RJO> the eq faction system had very little to do with anything more then a bad back story
<Dupsi> there should be race factions and guilds should eb completly seperate from them
<Darvin> and you get advantages from that faction
<GorGor> Factions will be stupid
<RJO> I would say if you made the factions into something game usefull
<Soun> factions are cool if you dont have to kill 2000 lvl 30 dwarves to do some retard quest
[02:06] <RJO> with a real purpose
[02:06] <Grewrt> I'd be up for factions as long as coons are in WoW, would be a good idea to have a coon alliance, orc alliance and so forth.
[02:06] <Egg_> should clarify...... would this mean separating races?
[02:06] <RJO> that the game revolves around.. it would be good
[02:06] <Eluna> dayland: just because one game did it wrong, doesn't mean Bliz can't get it right. Completely free-form guild warfare is very chaotic. Giving a basic structure: race factions, lets everyone find their place in the world and makes warfare more meaningful.
[02:06] <Egg_> or could any race join any faction?
[02:06] <RJO> I think drawing the lines along race is not a good idea... to limiting
[02:06] <Apricoth> Not necessarily separating races. Depends on how it is implemented
[02:06] <GorGor> 2 factions tops :)
[02:07] <Cha0sGrenade> So here's the BIG question....Should a human be able to bump himself up to the point where he can travel with orcs..or undead or some other race that doesn't typically like humans?
[02:07] <Snippa> has blizzard even said anything about adding factions ?
[02:07] <Apricoth> You can have a faction with a NPC guild and a PC guild.
[02:07] <Anti-Gremlin> the has to be a reason why a faction system will exist, to simply have a "kill the other guys" will not be enough of a reason for a faction system
[02:07] <GorGor> Orcs like humans
[02:07] <GorGor> :)
[02:07] <Darvin> no, thats why were are discussing it.
[02:07] <Dupsi> you shoudl eba bel to travelle with whoever you want
[02:07] <Jubilus> What if the human disuised himself :)
[02:07] <Eluna> RJO: racial based conflict is essential to warcraft: that's how the game has evolved. Bliz can draw on that, instead of abandoning it.
[02:07] <Jubilus> disguised
[02:07] <Darvin> I think we should ask the OPs what they think about factions. :p
[02:07] <GorGor> ya by not bathing for a week
[02:07] <Dupsi> then they dissguised themselves
[02:07] <RJO> yes yes it is
[02:07] <Cha0sGrenade> Eluna...good point
[02:07] <Eluna> snippa: they've hinted at factions.
[02:07] <zigon> i'd hope factions would stick the ones already found in the warcraft universe (human alliance, orcish horde, etc...)
[02:07] <GorGor> Why shud we ask the ops ?
[02:07] <Apricoth> That can be another faction type - race orientation.
[02:07] <RJO> tis a good point ;)
[02:07] <Snippa> thx eluna.
[02:08] <Egg_> Yes.... but if they do base it on races
[02:08] <Cha0sGrenade> Ya but at the end of WC3 all the races fought together....
[02:08] <RJO> yeah
[02:08] <RJO> exactly
[02:08] <GorGor> exactly
[02:08] <Egg_> that will affect grouping with other races
[02:08] <GorGor> Chaos is correct
[02:08] <RJO> the story line falls into place
[02:08] <Apricoth> You can have several different types of factions. Race, guild/clan, etc.
[02:08] <Dupsi> only some of the humans allied with the orcs not all
[02:08] <RJO> where as I think you will see the races together in WoW
[02:08] <RJO> so.. no race lines
[02:08] <RJO> hehe
[02:08] <cmthornton> a game based on a universe where races battle for control would seem kind of carebear to not have a faction system envolved
[02:08] <GorGor> Only kind of factions i can imagine is good vs evil type of thing :)
[02:08] <Cha0sGrenade> But htey could mix that up in Frozen throne...the gameplay movie shows orcs and humans fighting
[02:08] <Eluna> we'll probably see ARAC guilds (all race, all class) either impossible, or penalized by the system. You'll do better to be fully part of one faction or another.
[02:08] <Bullet230> but factions take far too long to fix. if you ruin your faction and want to fix it, you either spend hours and hours fixing it, or your better off deteling your character and starting anew
[02:08] <Egg_> yes
[02:08] <Egg_> but
[02:08] <Apricoth> Yeah, true
[02:08] <Dupsi> no way that would eb stupid Eluna
[02:08] <Egg_> in Frozen thorne : the races are NOT together
[02:08] <Vlood> but the prelude to WoW can make all races enemies again
[02:08] <Egg_> so
[02:08] <Cha0sGrenade> Eluna=Good points
[02:08] <cmthornton> yeah guess wut mmorpgs are timesinks
[02:08] <Apricoth> It could get really crazy
[02:08] <cmthornton> all of them
[02:09] <RJO> I don't think they will limit the scope of gameplay though
[02:09] <Cha0sGrenade> nah AO wasnt
[02:09] <Bullet230> factions just add more headaches in games
[02:09] <Eluna> bullet: that's just how it was done in another game. Bliz haven't released details on how their system would work.
[02:09] <RJO> it is something that more often then not gets frown upon within the community
[02:09] <Cha0sGrenade> well....at least not as bad as the rest
[02:09] <GorGor> AO was a waste of time not a timesink
[02:09] <RJO> even in this community
[02:09] <Cha0sGrenade> lol
[02:09] <Cha0sGrenade> yes it was
[02:09] <Eluna> For example, towns could all be factional: humans welcome, orcs killed on sight. Your human guild can set up shop there; or your orc guild can try to attack it.
[02:10] <Bullet230> Eluna, thats what happens in every single game that has had factions to do. There is no game that has been released that CAN do factions right because, for the most part, its a headache on the players
[02:10] <GorGor> evil/good faction only way i see WoW goin if any
[02:10] <sott> Iam okay with there being faction , aslong as you get a option to choose if you want to be part of one or not, so it can fill as many wishes as posible
[02:10] <Snippa> What if they did add factions what exactly would you like to see in it, or see different from other games ?
[02:10] <Dauntl3ss> Apricoth
[02:10] <Dauntl3ss> Dupsi
[02:10] <Dauntl3ss> SToNA
[02:10] <Egg_> i think guilds and a form of having guilds face off like factions would would allow for a lot more flexibility in grouping together other races
Topic
[02:10] <Dariuas> Very intresting points brought out there.
[02:10] <Dariuas> Now on to the second topic! Also, please remember to abide by channel rules!!
[02:10] <Dariuas> Question Number 2: Would you want factions hard set in code or slightly more liberal to allow for a none linear RP environment?
[02:11] <agris> non-linear
[02:11] <Null> non linear is always cool
[02:11] <cmthornton> i doubt wow is focusing on pvp, i believe it is pve
[02:11] <Dupsi> its gota be done for RP value only
[02:11] <Darvin> they should atleast have their own guide to follow, but more flexable
[02:11] <Dupsi> if it was fixed it would suck
[02:11] <Null> let players write the history
[02:11] <Apricoth> I would have to disagree with you there cmthornton. :)
[02:11] <Cha0sGrenade> how can it be WC without PVP though?
[02:11] <GorGor> Well arent there suppsoed to be pvp servers ?
[02:11] <Anti-Gremlin> no way on earth hard set in code, non linear for sure
[02:11] <Eluna> Well, we just touched on this; racial factions are of course static; but guilds could I think choose to ally within the factional system, or sit outside like rogue guilds.
[02:11] <Valconeye> lol
[02:11] <Darvin> they should atleast have their own guide to follow, but more flexable. so they can follow a path, but still write to it
[02:11] <cmthornton> pvp is just an option focus of it will be all on pve
[02:11] <Dauntl3ss> lo Valconeye
[02:11] <Anti-Gremlin> Blizzard has stated there will be PvP involved in WoW
[02:11] <RJO> that is why race line factions are not a good idea eluna
[02:11] <Eluna> thornton: they're offering plenty of PvP; but it's optional.
[02:11] <RJO> way to set in stone
[02:11] <RJO> ;)
[02:12] <cmthornton> there is pvp envolved on all mmorpgs, eq has pvp
[02:12] <Dauntl3ss> man, a lot of ppl I know here :]
[02:12] <Bullet230> I am confused.. how do you improve/destory factions with other players? it doesnt really makes sense..
[02:12] <Dauntl3ss> non-linear btw
[02:12] <zigon> i'd say a hybrid of the two
[02:12] <Egg_> well
[02:12] <Egg_> i'm not sure about non linear
[02:12] <Egg_> but
[02:12] <Eluna> RJO: but game events could mean that one month it's Orcs & Humans VS Elves, next month it's Humans & Elves vs Orcs.
[02:12] <Apricoth> I would say non-linear. Need some flexibility. Alliances will change and therefore FActions may change
[02:12] <RJO> that said... keeping a storyline flowing within a non static enviroment is something no company with a MMORPG has been able to pull off
[02:12] <Vlood> oh now i get it.. non-linear
[02:12] <Darvin> hybrid i would say too.
[02:12] <RJO> I think that should be considered as well
[02:12] <Cha0sGrenade> YA....but come on....would it even be Warcraft if there were groups made up of Humans, orcs, dwarves and Trolls? There has to be racial conflict to still be WC doesn't there?
[02:12] <RJO> if they go none linear will shard A be able to evolve as well as shard B as far as endoresed story line go
[02:12] <Darvin> hybrid i would say too. Allow them to stay on a track, but allow them to write to it
[02:12] <Eluna> you could destroy guilds belonging to your enemy faction, weakening the faction. Perhaps players can benefit as their faction does well.
[02:12] <Egg_> considering the positions Blizzard has been offering in terms of "story characters" for WoW on the resource board...... i'd say they have a set story in mind that they might implement
[02:13] <Egg_> that's just my opinion though
[02:13] <Apricoth> Exactly.
[02:13] <GorGor> I say make factions for the mass populace and let the guilds do whatever they want on the side
[02:13] <Egg_> so i think it will be linear
[02:13] <Dupsi> I agree
[02:13] <RJO> egg - I would say they have a rough idea of where they want to go
[02:13] <Apricoth> A faction can become stronger than another, snuffing out the lesser. Survival of the fittest
[02:13] <RJO> but static elements can be dropped into a dynamic world
[02:13] <RJO> I don't see why not
[02:13] <Apricoth> It's quite logical
[02:13] <Egg_> like asheron's call
[02:13] <Cha0sGrenade> I got a feeling Frozen Throne will totally set up the storyline for WoW
[02:13] <Apricoth> You are right - we will know more once TFT is done
[02:13] <Vlood> I think there should be rare and unique quests that only few players find and complete and they should disapear after a while or after a certain amount of players have completed them
[02:13] <Apricoth> It will dictate what is gonna happen in WoW, hands down.
[02:13] <Cha0sGrenade> in terms of if the races are friendly or enemies
[02:14] <Dupsi> thats true
[02:14] <cK-ImageOmega> yeah I think the idea of factions will be great, and the best thing for PvP at higher levels
[02:14] <Bullet230> Cha0s, thats what I am saying... I don't understand how it can be called World of Warcraft when races that in warcraft normally hate eachother are killing side by side... there is no possible way to make a solid storyline when you allow such actions
[02:14] <Dupsi> maby they will all be friends eh?
[02:14] <GorGor> nah WoW will be carebear all races holding hands crap i bet
[02:14] <Eluna> maybe it's up to the players themselves... politics, to establish alliances between factions. Maybe factions have to compete for resources for crafting.
[02:14] <cmthornton> yeah but it sucks when a faction to so much stronger than the other, daoc ex. its not fun to be mid if 75% of the server is alb
[02:14] <RJO> bullet - the story line of warcraft
[02:14] <Dupsi> I do hope that Eluna
[02:14] <RJO> has evolved beyond Orcs Vs humans
[02:14] <Apricoth> You can have factions and alliances with a race that is hated for advantageous reasons
[02:14] <Dariuas> Maybe they'll ahve a totally dynamic system
[02:14] <Apricoth> You don't have to like that race to benefit from them
[02:14] <cK-ImageOmega> Blizzard already said that they're establishing a system of politics between the races
[02:14] <Bullet230> but there is still tension... not all races fight together now
[02:14] <Apricoth> Once you are done with them you can cast them aside. :P
[02:14] <Dupsi> Bigger citys shoudl eb more accepting then smaller ones though
[02:14] <Dariuas> I will be King Grog!
[02:14] <cK-ImageOmega> so its pretty doubtful all the races will get along
[02:14] <RJO> of course there is tension :)
[02:15] <Dupsi> Undead wont get along
[02:15] <Cha0sGrenade> True Bullet....But...in Frozen Throne there is a new enemy called the Naga, and they could be sufficiently evil enough to unite the rest of the races....or at least to the point where they can "group" togteher \occasionally
[02:15] <Valconeye> all i hear is Taurens will eat dwarfs.
[02:15] <Anti-Gremlin> races will be able to play along side one another, but you also have a selected few who will abide to their race and have conflicts with others, thats what i think. having only 1 style system makes it all limited.
[02:15] <Snippa> lol Darius
[02:15] <Apricoth> I would be surprised if all the races got along. That would be weird.
[02:15] <Apricoth> lol Valcon
[02:15] <GorGor> nah dwarves will blast out of their stomachs with storng explosives
[02:15] <Valconeye> yep!
[02:15] <Apricoth> Rofl
[02:15] <Bekkah> lol
[02:15] <Dupsi> hehe
[02:15] <Dariuas> Actually, I want to be a zefflin
[02:15] <Egg_> Chaos: from what i understood of the story line... this was gonna be a "undead" or possibly Arthus as the big bad guy
[02:15] <Eluna> there will likely be reasons for guilds & factions to compete: limited resources for crafting, spots to place your guildhall, economic interests...
[02:15] <Snippa> lol
[02:15] <GorGor> zeppelin ? that a playable race ?
[02:15] <Cha0sGrenade> Speaking of explosives, anyone else want to play a goblin :P
[02:16] <Dauntl3ss> It's not safe to say that all orcs will be allied with humans and night elves.. The orc in one of those 4 new screenies got dark skin.. which makes him look evil
[02:16] <Snippa> zepplin is not a race!
[02:16] <Bekkah> lol
[02:16] <Bullet230> Well, I havent been following Frozen Throne.. so i guess that is a possibility.. I guess I just dont like the direction they are taking warcraft then heh
[02:16] <sott> lol
[02:16] <Apricoth> Yeah, Eluna. That's why you want the faction system flexible
[02:16] <Apricoth> If you want a resource and the guild/race or whatever but you don't want war, alliances are key
[02:16] <Eluna> Maybe there are grand quests, where orcs & humans, at war, have to come together to overcome a new enemy
[02:16] <Cha0sGrenade> true Bullet. I want to play an orc who hates humans...if I dont get to kill hummies I'll be pissed
[02:16] <Anti-Gremlin> apricoth is right there
[02:16] <Bullet230> =)
[02:16] <GorGor> i want to play an orc who luvs everyone :)
[02:16] <Dupsi> but someclans wont want to join and there iwll be huge battles
[02:16] <Anti-Gremlin> there will be millions of small based quests/events
[02:17] <RJO> I think the game system should be flexable enough to allow that chaos
[02:17] <RJO> if that is the path you choose
[02:17] <Apricoth> And then that faction that allied either becomes stronger or weaker depending on how it goes. =)
[02:17] <Anti-Gremlin> but selected few major events/quests/battles/whatnot
[02:17] <Tridanius> I would find it very unlikely that Blizzard would limit racial interaction just to go along with any storyline. They seem to be more interested in fun simple gameplay.
[02:17] <GorGor> Chaos then RP hating them and kill npc humans :)
[02:17] <RJO> but I do not think EVERY orc should be made to HATE humans
[02:17] <Apricoth> That's where uprisings can occur. =D

Crafting
[02:17] <Dariuas> Alrighty, well you guys sure had a lot to say about that!
[02:17] <Dariuas> Try this one on for size! How many different ways to improve your character would you want? Should there be ways for crafters for example to improve their characters specially towards crafting through ways that are crafting related or do they have to kill monsters so they can make better items?

[02:17] <Kheldon> Just because there is a overall peave between races doesn't mean that everyone must be holding hands. Perhaps some factions of each race doesn't feel that they want peace with x race/faction, it should be up to the player rather than having a hard coded feature telling you "You hate this."
[02:17] <Dauntl3ss> Yes---
[02:17] <Apricoth> Argh
[02:18] <Starbabie> what if someone doesnt want to be in a guild.. then what ?
[02:18] <Kheldon> oops
[02:18] <Apricoth> lol Kheldon
[02:18] <Valconeye> i think there should be an advanced system that lets you craft items to help you craft
[02:18] <Dupsi> no crafters should be able to get good at it without killign creeps
[02:18] <GorGor> then they get killed :)
[02:18] <Eluna> We've had some nice things revealed; secondary skills, as well as plenty of items to wear.
[02:18] <Apricoth> I think there should be a combination
[02:18] <GorGor> nah Dupsi thats dumb
[02:18] <Egg_> Using a skill should improve your ability to do that skill
[02:18] <Egg_> over time
[02:18] <Egg_> very simple
[02:18] <Dupsi> its so ahrd for crafters to get good when they put lal their poiints into crafting
[02:18] <Apricoth> And they also should be supported by the guild they are in
[02:18] <GorGor> if peopel want to craft they shudnt have to kill stuff themselves
[02:18] <Dupsi> they can't level
[02:18] <Dupsi> no they shouldn't
[02:18] <Anti-Gremlin> in regards to crafting, there leveling system is based off the skills or creating, repairing, and questing
[02:18] <Eluna> Crafters will need to kill to get items for crafting; I think it was Bill Roper that said that.
[02:18] <Apricoth> A crafter will flourish better if they are supported by their clain - i.e. funding and materials.
[02:18] <GorGor> by that i mean have to level to increase crafting
[02:18] <Dariuas> Name a real life blacksmith that had to go and kill an orc so he could smelt.
[02:18] <Dupsi> brb
[02:18] <Bullet230> I personally was content with crafting in DAoC... seemed reasonable to me.. though maybe a tad expensive hehe
[02:19] <GorGor> dwarf blacksmiths ?
[02:19] <Tridanius> I think if a crafter has the items and equipment needed to craft they will never need to kill mobs.
[02:19] <GorGor> :)
[02:19] <Snippa> Crafters should improve by crafting, not by killing monsters, thats pointless, unless blizz was to come up with some damn good items to craft because of that or somethin to that effect.
[02:19] <Apricoth> But got the hard way of killing for your crafting supplies.
[02:19] <Apricoth> That's my point Trid
[02:19] <Valconeye> it would be nice if you could run a blacksmith, and blacksmithing is part of crafting kinda
[02:19] <Vlood> Then there should be a crafting class, which advance in levels through crafting and now fighting
[02:19] <Eluna> I think PvE will be important for everyone; but crafters will just do less of it as they improve their skills.
[02:19] <Anti-Gremlin> crafters should not have a need to even see an enemy to improve its skills one bit
[02:19] <Apricoth> Yeah
[02:19] <basil> I don't remember reading anywhere that crafters would have to go out and kill to get resources
[02:19] <Dupsi> back
[02:19] <GorGor> why have levels at all ?
[02:19] <GorGor> % not enuff ? UO had the right idea
[02:19] <Soun> they shouldnt waste time putting in crafting and spend more time making a fun balanced pvp game thats fun for both casual gamers and hardcore gamers
[02:19] <Starbabie> they already said there will be master quest kills ofr crafters
[02:19] <Snippa> Eluna, what is PvE?
[02:19] <Valconeye> stat points
[02:19] <Apricoth> It's different types of levels, Gor
[02:19] <Bullet230> but crafters could not become better warriors for example by just crafting... sure they may become awesome crafters.. but thats all they should become without practicing their combat skills
[02:20] <Chux> Player vs Enviroment
[02:20] <Snippa> ok
[02:20] <Apricoth> I want to craft but I don't want to be the type to have to stay in town for it
[02:20] <Eluna> soun: bliz is making sure there's SEVERAL different ways of playing the game PvE, PvP, crafting, etc.
[02:20] <Egg_> i'd have to agree with you Soun.... but not just PVP.... all aspects of PvSomething
[02:20] <Tridanius> If a crafter is smart they will be able to trade for all the stuff they need and shouldn't have to even leave town if they choose no to
[02:20] <Apricoth> I want to go out and adventure but that's me
[02:20] <Anti-Gremlin> Crafting is not a battling skill
[02:20] <zigon> I'd think crafters wouldn't need to leave town to gather supplies... their guild should gather them for 'em... and I think read somewhere a crafter would very rarely have to leave town
[02:20] <Dupsi> crafters should be able to craft and not kill
[02:20] <Snippa> Apricoth, I heard theres supposed to be housing, so why would you stay in town?
[02:20] <Apricoth> An economy needs crafters. Especially if the crafting items that is created by the PC are better than the items that are dropped
[02:20] <Eluna> trid: then the question is, can crafters level and improve their skills without any PvE? That's a hard one to answer.
[02:20] <Anti-Gremlin> If you are wanting to be a lone crafty
[02:21] <GorGor> crafters shud be able to craft and if they want maybe their fighting profficency would be half of that as a regular player
[02:21] <Anti-Gremlin> you will need to have skills enough to gather your own supplies
[02:21] <Bullet230> but are you guys saying that crafters should gain "normal" levels by crafting? or are you saying they can only increase their crafting skill by crafting?
[02:21] <Tridanius> I think peope overestimate the very importance if combat in WOW.
[02:21] <zigon> alternative play styles to advance is needed... killin creeps gets boring after awhile
[02:21] <Kheldon> Peaceful professions shouldn't have to kill to get better at their professions. But by putting resources in hard to get to areas, you could promote a player interaction. The fighter could actually have a purpose to go and kill stuff, perhaps tp bring back resources to a blacksmith as part of a deal. I know that I did this in AC2. I didn't dig crafting much so I brought resources in exchange for items. :)
[02:21] <Soun> crafters should be vulnerable to pvp so i can go kill them while theyre sitting there hitting combine for the 500th time
[02:21] <Dupsi> they shoudl eb able ot get resources without killing
[02:21] <Anti-Gremlin> or you may be able to purchase the required items from vendors, players
[02:21] <Dalgar> i'm late!
[02:21] <Apricoth> And you know what will improve your pvping? The crafted items by a crafter
[02:21] <Snippa> if you can build a home in WoW like you can in UO then i'd much rather sit in my house & craft rather than sit in a town all day
[02:21] <Anti-Gremlin> or like stated from guild members (if you are in a guild)
[02:21] <Eluna> kheldon ya I'd like to see that.
[02:21] <Vlood> crafting seems boring and many will probably have them as second characters to earn money and make equipment for themself
[02:21] <basil> I agree with Kheldon, crafters shouldn't have to kill to get better
[02:21] <Dupsi> they should eb able to send other playes on a mission tog et gold or whatever for them, then they pay them for it
[02:21] <Apricoth> So, what you are saying is instead of someone crafting the better items they should forsake it for PvPing sake but you are shooting yourself in the foot.
[02:21] <basil> they should be able to barter
[02:21] <Dauntl3ss> Agreed Kheldon
[02:21] <Eluna> Yes, I fully expect crafted items by a mastercrafter will be among the best in a game.
[02:22] <Dalgar> gogo gadget copter
[02:22] <Bullet230> But crafting costs money.. where will this money come from ?
[02:22] <Kheldon> *nods Eluna*
[02:22] <Valconeye> guilds
[02:22] <Anti-Gremlin> Vlood: A lot of people actually like being crafters as they are helping fellow warriors and whatnot
[02:22] <Cha0sGrenade> Personally I think the key to crafting is pretty simple...Crafted items should be BETTER than anything you can find for the equivalent level
[02:22] <LookOutForTheWam> Rock 'n Roll Racing is fun
[02:22] <Apricoth> The crafter will either have to hunt for it or be funded by their guild
[02:22] <Dupsi> other players
[02:22] <Eluna> bullet: selling crafted items to players.
[02:22] <Dauntl3ss> Eluna : not as good as uniques items
[02:22] <Valconeye> will support, or should support crafters, just like Apricoth said
[02:22] <Apricoth> And selling items as everyone is mentioning.. afk a sec
[02:22] <Dupsi> it will be hard ot start out for them at first but once they get good they will be realy rich
[02:22] <Anti-Gremlin> a crafter can supply itself with its own money
[02:22] <Bullet230> but they have to start somewhere
[02:22] <Anti-Gremlin> it could go mining, gather some minerals
[02:22] <Anti-Gremlin> and sell at a shop
[02:22] <Bullet230> and guilds wont always help out
[02:22] <Kheldon> Crafted items should be the unique items of the game :)
[02:22] <Anti-Gremlin> recieving money to get better equipment
[02:22] <Dalgar> ya
[02:22] <zigon> good guilds would help out
[02:22] <Dupsi> thye may nto ahve a guild to help
[02:23] <Valconeye> its hard to supply the money, it takes along time, in asherons call 2 it took my forever
[02:23] <Anti-Gremlin> this is one of many ways of gathering money
[02:23] <Kheldon> at least crafted items should be good enough to be preferred over regular loot weapons
[02:23] <Eluna> PvE sends gold and resources into the economy. Players give those to crafters in return for items. With those items, they can get more gold and resources...
[02:23] <Dupsi> there should also be a chance that the crafter breaks the item, then you can kill them
[02:23] <Vlood> no.. unique should be unique.. not crafted
[02:23] <Dauntl3ss> Crafters should use stuff they find on mobs to craft with.. like some ore from rockjaw troggs or something..
[02:23] <Soviet-KGB> hi
[02:23] <Cha0sGrenade> I played EQ when it first came out. People lined up around the corner for the first guy who could make banded. He was getting tons of plat for simple pieces. but then 6 mos later EVERYONE at level 10 had junk that made banded look like band aids
[02:23] <Anti-Gremlin> you dont have to be restricted as you HAVE to be in a guild for finacial supprt
[02:23] <Anti-Gremlin> unique items are that.. unique.. not crafted.
[02:23] <Bullet230> Generally by crafting. you slowly LOSE money to merchants, and sometimes gain a tiny bit from players.. players don't like paying extra for crafted items, it pisses them off lol
[02:23] <Valconeye> you should be able to craft crafting items
[02:23] <Tridanius> that does bring up and issue of twinking crafters with mass amounts of cash though
[02:23] <agris> crafting should be a huge part of the game like DaoC so there is 0 incentive to go raid and do high lvl encounters, that would make a great game..... <thumbs down>
[02:23] <Cha0sGrenade> Crafting should be > than loot. Period
[02:23] <Dupsi> yes you should :D
[02:24] <Anti-Gremlin> crafting is a major part in the world
[02:24] <zigon> a crafted item should never be greather then a one per server item
[02:24] <Dupsi> yah because there has ot be a reason for you to want to be a crafter
[02:24] <cmthornton> i agree that insane crafted items takes away from high lvl content in pve
[02:24] <Dauntl3ss> Cha0sGrenade: that should depend on lvl of crafter, right?
[02:24] <Anti-Gremlin> bring in a econmy system as well
[02:24] <Valconeye> true
[02:24] <cmthornton> daoc is proof of that
[02:24] <Eluna> trid: right. I think crafting should be seen as a secondary skill; and any crafter will likely have to do SOME PvE to get started as a character. It's a dangerous world; and no one has the luxury of 'staying at home'
[02:24] <SyliconSlycer> crafting is allright, as long as you can decide what you want to craft and it isnt always oh you created this, you should be able to choose with items you use in crafting
[02:24] <Dupsi> I think you should eb abl to "stay home"
[02:24] <agris> When crafting > loot, you loose your high end pve/Raiding Hook. That hook holds a lot of people to EQ right now
[02:24] <Dalgar> brb 2 sec
[02:24] <Dupsi> if thats what they want
[02:24] <Bullet230> Personally I think there should be more powerful items as loot for later on (ie epic mobs) but player crafted items should definitely be better than store bought, this is where DAoC was awesome
[02:25] <Cha0sGrenade> I think Crafting should be alittle skill and then some sort of game like chess. You play against the comp and if you win you get a sweet crafted item. Lose and you fail. The better you play the game the better you craft. That way even a twinked crafter might not be able to be a Master Crafter
[02:25] <Anti-Gremlin> you can "stay at home"
[02:25] <Anti-Gremlin> it will prob take longer
[02:25] <Tridanius> I think that is where crafter should have to do some sort of questing to get equipment
[02:25] <Valconeye> well, if there was marriage, some peeps would stay at home
[02:25] <Dauntl3ss> How specificly do you craft?
[02:25] <zigon> you should even be able to level up as a drunk at a local tavern
[02:25] <Anti-Gremlin> as you will have to purchase more of the things
[02:25] <Eluna> daunt: we have no real idea yet.
[02:25] <Dupsi> we doon't know Dauntl3ss
[02:25] <Cha0sGrenade> Daunt they havent said yet how crafting will be
[02:25] <Soun> they should just put different rules on each server so ppl who want to craft can go on their crafting server and not disrupt gameplay for the rest of us
[02:25] <Dauntl3ss> okok
[02:25] <SyliconSlycer> yeah but if you build a game for every possible way it could go, you coudlnt fit it into a package
[02:25] <Dauntl3ss> But looking on other games
[02:25] <Vlood> is crafting a sure part of the game or only expected ?
[02:26] <Anti-Gremlin> Soun: splitting people up like that would suck
[02:26] <Cha0sGrenade> disrupt gameplay....Soun...that makes NO sense. :P
[02:26] <DB-Dalgar> its a sure part
[02:26] <Bullet230> sure part Vlood
[02:26] <Apricoth> I believe it's expected. :)_
[02:26] <Dauntl3ss> sure
[02:26] <Tridanius> it is surely a large part of WOW
[02:26] <Eluna> But if players can just find nicer than crafted items by hunting, crafting will have no value in the game. If crafted items are among the best, then you have a real engine for a player economy.
[02:26] <Dupsi> well it will be thats for sure
[02:26] <Anti-Gremlin> its a sure thang =P
[02:26] <Kheldon> I think you should have the option to be a 100% crafter, not having to fight ever. It would make them a much better crafter then one spreading their skills, but they would also be at a disadvantage when in a situation they aren'y skilled in at all.
[02:26] <Dupsi> thats why crafting items have ot tbe the better ones
[02:26] <Apricoth> Yes, that is the biggest problem Eluna.
[02:26] <Cha0sGrenade> claps for Eluna
[02:26] <Eluna> soun: they want to mix players completely, so crafting, pvp, pve etc all happen on the same server.
[02:26] <Dupsi> or a crafter can improve on any item
[02:26] <Apricoth> The crafted items must be better than the drops or you break the economy and screw the crafter
[02:26] <Dupsi> except for unq's
[02:26] <Apricoth> AC2 screwed the crafters, as an example what not to do. :)
[02:27] <DB-Dalgar> new topic :)
[02:27] <Dupsi> heheh
[02:27] <Vlood> kheldon: what if you only have one player per #, do you think anyone would be 100% crafters ?
[02:27] <Cha0sGrenade> But they also need Item degredation. Twinks are a problem because nothing ever disappears fromt he economy. Stuff needs to break
[02:27] <Tridanius> maybe crafting will be a cool way to get a personalized item, custom ordered with custom stats
[02:27] <Eluna> I'm tempted to make a crafter
[02:27] <Bullet230> Eluna, I am saying Epic Mobs should have better gear than crafted... if a god crafted a weapon, would it really be much weaker than a master crafters weapon? (a player crafted weapon?)
[02:27] <Anti-Gremlin> items SHOULD be degradable
[02:27] <Dauntl3ss> Eluna : there should be a difference between crafted and found items.. maybe that crafted items last longer (durability) and found items can have magics etc..
[02:27] <Eluna> chaos yes the economy needs sinks, Perhaps the process of crafting could be expensive.
[02:27] <zigon> i'd make a 100% crafter as a second character
[02:27] <Anti-Gremlin> making the crafters more important
[02:27] <Kheldon> Vlood: what do you mean?
[02:27] <shinro> item degredation is a must
[02:27] <Anti-Gremlin> as they can repair the so called items
[02:27] <RJO> bullet - that said you need a high rarity factor ;)
[02:27] <Anti-Gremlin> (not to 100% either)
[02:27] <SyliconSlycer> i personaly would like to play atrader
[02:27] <Apricoth> The crafting system should become more and more expensive. That goes without saying
[02:27] <SyliconSlycer> Trader
[02:27] <Dupsi> yah crafters should also be able ot repair

Crafting advanced
[02:27] <Dariuas> Ok
[02:28] <Dariuas> well since you all seem very intrested in the subject of crafting, lets talk about another aspect of it.
[02:28] <Dariuas> Tonights Forth Topic: How should resources (raw material) be placed in WoW? Dangerous areas to promote player interaction? An example being that an adventurer gets a reward for bringing uncommon material to crafters and in way making that a playstyle of their own as suppliers. Or should everything be available

[02:28] <Kak> YES
[02:28] <Vlood> kheldon: if you are only allowed to play one character per account
[02:28] <Dauntl3ss> All weapons are crafted somewhere.....
[02:28] <DB-Dalgar> fourth*
[02:28] <Kak> I CONCUR
[02:28] <Dariuas> misspelled ;P
[02:28] <Dariuas> shoot me
[02:28] <Tridanius> depend in the resource
[02:28] <Bullet230> I think both =p
[02:28] <Kak> I CONCUR
[02:28] <Eluna> The best resources should come from dangerous monsters, IN PVP AREAS.
[02:28] <Bullet230> they should be loot and merchant bought
[02:28] <Dauntl3ss> lol
[02:28] <Apricoth> No, most of the resources should be either mined or dropped
[02:28] <Anti-Gremlin> things should be avialable via NPCs (but at a cost though)
[02:29] <Eluna> So if you want nice items, you have to fight for it.
[02:29] <Dupsi> ther good stuff the players should have to find
[02:29] <Cha0sGrenade> Nah I think you should actually have to mine
[02:29] <Cha0sGrenade> or cut wood
[02:29] <Dupsi> but cheep stuff should be at the NPC's
[02:29] <Anti-Gremlin> but also allow for resource gathering from the harder places which introduces the interaction part of things
[02:29] <Dupsi> like wood shoudol come form NPC's
[02:29] <basil> I think it should be like Ultima Online
[02:29] <Apricoth> Well, cheap stuff like crafting equipment perhaps.
[02:29] <Anti-Gremlin> so basicly this is what i think
[02:29] <Tridanius> I'm guessing wood would be an easy resource to get for any noob. but rare metals won't
[02:29] <RJO> maybe having different quality of materials??? have mining, etc
[02:29] <basil> you mine for ore, and you chop for wood
[02:29] <Cha0sGrenade> But there should be damgerous mobs int he area of good matirials
[02:29] <Eluna> why not walk out of town and cut down a tree, that's the essence of warcraft. :)
[02:29] <RJO> but also can buy low grade on npcs
[02:29] <Dalgar> warcraft is mining! you gotta have mining
[02:29] <basil> it makes no sense for you to have to kill a giant for ore
[02:29] <Anti-Gremlin> you can gather "el cheapo" resources from local areas/NPCs
[02:29] <RJO> to make the life of a new crafter easier?
[02:29] <Dauntl3ss> What about warriors finding raw material and sells it to crafters.. ?
[02:29] <Kheldon> I disagree that best resources has to be in PvP areas, many simply don't -like- to PvP. Should they then be excluded from progressing in the game?
[02:29] <Anti-Gremlin> and get the high quality stuff
[02:29] <basil> when you havea shovel or pickaxe in a mine
[02:29] <Eluna> chop wood, mine ore, kill dragons for gems.
[02:29] <Anti-Gremlin> from the harder places
[02:29] <Apricoth> hehehe I will not debase myself into a peon. :P
[02:29] <Cha0sGrenade> Agreed Basil
[02:29] <zigon> Rare materials should have to garthered in somewhat remote, dangerous areas. Example: special type of wood for bows is only found on a certain chain of islands...
[02:29] <Apricoth> jk!!
[02:30] <SyliconSlycer> I would play a game, but I dont like the economy of Diablo, everything is based on SoJ's
[02:30] <Anti-Gremlin> which can only be used at higher skills
[02:30] <Gowel> So many people want stuff like Ultima Online
[02:30] <Bullet230> It would be nice if resources were found when hunting, that way people who like killing can make money off "worthless" loot, and people crafting can get their resources much cheaper... what do you think ?
[02:30] <Dalgar> you gotta go to the gold mine and carry the gold back to the town hall :)
[02:30] <Eluna> kheldon: if they want the best items, then they need to brave the other players, or hire someone to get it
[02:30] <Soun> you should also be able to kill people and FULLY LOOT their corpses taking all the item resources from them, so you can hire a mercenary to go kill your competition and bring back their crafting materials
[02:30] <SyliconSlycer> I realize the game evolvedto that point
[02:30] <Cha0sGrenade> I hate killing stuff and getting junk that has NO BUSINESS being on that type of creature
[02:30] * Dupsi SLOW DOWN!!!!!!!!!
[02:30] <Dauntl3ss> this goes very fast :o
[02:30] <Dalgar> i'm gonna be a mercenary :)
[02:30] <Cha0sGrenade> Like you killed the Rat...you find...a Large shield!!!!! HATE that...it sux
[02:30] <SyliconSlycer> I wouldnt be into that kind of a game, go kill people just for the sake of takking their things
[02:30] <Apricoth> Think of it this way - the materials you find off of the mobs or quest for even, you will appreciate when you have it made into something. :)
[02:30] <Dupsi> no way Soun
[02:30] <Tridanius> agreed Cha0s
[02:30] <Eluna> chaos: take a look at basilisks. They have gems embedded int heir scales.
[02:30] <Dauntl3ss> it wont be like that in WoW Cha0sGrenade
[02:30] <Dauntl3ss> I hope
[02:31] <Dupsi> me to chaos
[02:31] <shinro> i agree with soun
[02:31] <Cha0sGrenade> heh heh ya I hope too
[02:31] <Apricoth> Getting stuff off of a merchant NPC does not have the feel of specialty I think.
[02:31] <Dalgar> are you being racist against rats chaos? ;)
[02:31] <Eluna> This is world of WARcraft, not world of CarebearCraft.
[02:31] <zigon> hopefully there wont be rats in wow, unless part of the background in a building
[02:31] <shinro> being able to loot all their items/coins is the way to go
[02:31] <Kheldon> Hmm..that's true. I guess. Basically the same concept I mentioned earlier...didn't think about the fact that no adventurer then someone willing to PvP would actually try to do that job :) Sorry Eluna ;)
[02:31] <Anti-Gremlin> so basicly if you want high quality resources, you will have to go to more remote/dangerous areas to gather these resources, or you can have simple less effective resources from more local friendly areas/NPC's
[02:31] <Dupsi> well youg et cheep stuff from NPC's for starting out crafters
[02:31] <Apricoth> Gotta work for it, simple as that.
[02:31] <SyliconSlycer> that is a cool idea, tking things off of monsters, crafters have to hire salvaters to get certain items
[02:31] <Eluna> if you want the best stuff, you must go through the greatest dangers
[02:31] <SyliconSlycer> salvagers
[02:31] <SyliconSlycer> sorry
[02:31] <Bullet230> exactly Sy =)
[02:31] <Dupsi> because crafting is a hard road and its realy had for new ones
[02:31] <UN-MrObesity> ahhh made it
[02:32] <zigon> savalging from items? sounds like AC2 and that system was horrbile
[02:32] <Apricoth> heh
[02:32] <Cha0sGrenade> Ya but...Crafters shouldnt have to be the greatest warriors. They need to make enough money to be able to pay for stuff that others quest for
[02:32] <Apricoth> AC2 had it's perks in that area
[02:32] <osiris`> hey
[02:32] <SyliconSlycer> I have always wanted to play a game where you could salvage the corpses realistically
[02:32] <osiris`> whens WoW beta?!?!!?!!?
[02:32] <Eluna> actually I think melting down old swords should be a part of crafting too.
[02:32] <Dauntl3ss> osiris no one knows
[02:32] <Bullet230> Eluna, that would be cool
[02:32] <SyliconSlycer> good idea eluna
[02:32] <Apricoth> Yea, I think so too
[02:32] <Anti-Gremlin> also, just being a n00b crafty and going to a rare place for gathering minerals will not mean you can gather the high quality resources
[02:32] <Dalgar> if an item breaks, you should be able to take the broken parts and recraft it (ie: lotr :)
[02:32] <Kheldon> It could be a craftin area on it's own, convertin material to raw material
[02:32] <Cha0sGrenade> I hated how in EQ to be a good crafter you HAD...absolutely HAD to also be a powergamer OR have a guild bankroll you
[02:32] <Starbabie> osiris ?
[02:32] <osiris`> yes?
[02:32] <SyliconSlycer> but are we gonna make a game only about crafting,
[02:32] <Dupsi> if you melted down two unq swords woudl you get a realy good one in return?
[02:33] <Anti-Gremlin> you also have to be skilled to be able to successfully gather the resources
[02:33] <Tridanius> maybe crafters would have a find item skill like D2 and would have access to different loot on a mob. similar to morrowind too
[02:33] <Apricoth> heh
[02:33] <Eluna> if crafting is going to be engaging and challenging, it needs its own complexity. Travelling far and into dangerous areas makes it more fun. Buying everything from a shop... boring.
[02:33] <SyliconSlycer> I think nayone should be able to craft
[02:33] <Bullet230> I am down with items degrading and such, as long as they can ALWAYS be repaired.. I mean surely someone could always repair a weapon? even if it costed a few extra steel or something
[02:33] <Anti-Gremlin> so quality can only also be done by the skill of the player
[02:33] <Dupsi> not everyone should be able to craft
[02:33] <shinro> there needs to be an autofollow feature
[02:33] <Dupsi> that like saying everyone4 should eb able to cast
[02:33] <Apricoth> Well, I think anyone will be able to craft but it's not for everyone's tastes
[02:33] <SyliconSlycer> I have a hard time to do any of these games cause I dont have a lot of time like some people
[02:33] <Bullet230> why shouldnt eveyone be able to craft?
[02:33] <Dupsi> so not everyone can do everyhting
[02:33] <Dauntl3ss> What about crafting magical items and clothes?
[02:33] <Valconeye> new subject.
[02:33] <Apricoth> I can tell you right now that 90% of the player base is not going to be crafters
[02:33] <Eluna> people should be able to start crafting relatively easily; but to get good, it should become increasingly difficult, both to improve the skill, and get the materials.
[02:33] <Apricoth> They will want to buy their items.
[02:33] <Tridanius> If course some races should be better at crafting certain items
[02:33] <SyliconSlycer> I am gone up to 5 days a week then I do other things with my time
[02:33] <Vlood> hehe imagen a Horadric Cube in WoW :)
[02:33] <Dariuas> I think if your going to be a crafter, you should have to be specific to 1 type of craft
[02:33] <Dupsi> we need certain peopel for certain things so we rely on eachother and the community grows
[02:33] <Dauntl3ss> nqp
[02:33] <Apricoth> From crafters instead of being crafters
[02:34] <Eluna> enchanters should be a type of crafter.
[02:34] <Anti-Gremlin> Dauntl3ss: magical... good question, maybe mixed classes?
[02:34] <Bullet230> I agree Farius
[02:34] <Apricoth> Enchant metals and stuff. :)
[02:34] <Bullet230> er Dar
[02:34] <MrObesity> ahh too many
[02:34] <Dariuas> You have quite a treasure there in that Horadric Cube.
[02:34] <Cha0sGrenade> I think it would be cool too if crafters had to get an UBER crafting tool. Like a warrior wants the "Sword of Pain" the forger needs the Forge of Smelting or something
[02:34] <cmthornton> haha
[02:34] <Dauntl3ss> Can a mage craft?
[02:34] <Eluna> chaos: not a bad idea.
[02:34] <Dupsi> Enchanters shoudl eb be crafters because encants are usaly limited by time
[02:34] <Egg_> Not sure if this has been mentioned but: Finding a rare monster for an even more rare hope of it dropping an item you need in crafting or such should NOT be present (ie from Asheron's Call)
[02:34] <Eluna> either tools that need to be crafted, or found, or bought (expensively)
[02:34] <Bullet230> DAoC did that Dariuas.. made alot of peopel actually think about what they wanted to craft before they did it.. (you could only choose 1 perfession and could not ever change it once chosen)
[02:34] <zigon> i would hope some enchants could be permanent
[02:34] <Kheldon> Crafters should depend on others to bring them the more rare resources, and PvPers and PvEers should have to depend on crafters for the best items
[02:34] <Anti-Gremlin> Dauntl3ss: enchanting crafter =P
[02:34] <Anti-Gremlin> orr..
[02:34] <Tridanius> lol, egg thought you were going to say eq
[02:34] <Dariuas> I think if you want to make scale mail armor you need to go and kill a dragon, and skin it
[02:35] <Egg_> well
[02:35] <Dauntl3ss> :P something like that
[02:35] <Anti-Gremlin> a enchanter chants onto a crafted weapoin
[02:35] <Egg_> either game really
[02:35] <Egg_> lol
[02:35] <Apricoth> Agreed, Kheldon
[02:35] <Dupsi> heheh
[02:35] <Dauntl3ss> Ritual crafting :D
[02:35] <Kheldon> So that no one is soley dependant on other while some are totally independant
[02:35] <Dupsi> that would be cool
[02:35] <Apricoth> As I mentioned before, the crafter will be more sucessful if backed up by their guild.
[02:35] <TuBoy> ok. Back now. and at work. I'll try to follow up on what everyone is talking about
[02:35] <Dupsi> you think enchanters should be able to permantly enchant a weapon?
[02:35] <Anti-Gremlin> Apricoth: not everyone wants/can be in a guild
[02:35] <Eluna> right. you want a great weapon, you get a swordsmith to make the sword, then go to an enchanter to get magics put on it.

Housing
[02:35] <Dariuas> Alright, now lets talk about MY favorite subject. HOUSING
[02:36] <Dariuas> What do ppl hope for with housing? Just another bank? A permanent shop out in the woods or desert? Their own workshop with a kiln/forge/anvil? Or a large trophy room that can be fully furnished by your own creations and weapons.?"

[02:36] <Soun> i hope there will be guild housing
[02:36] <Dupsi> fully furnished
[02:36] <Shroom|Nitzel> all of the above.
[02:36] <Soun> so your whole guild can share a giant frat house
[02:36] <Soviet-KGB> guild halls
[02:36] <Snippa> all of the above.
[02:36] <Dauntl3ss> We've allready seen that wagon-like house
[02:36] <Eluna> completely versatile system. Player towns, in special areas for that purpose (so the world doesn't get overrun)
[02:36] <zigon> I want a bed...
[02:36] <Tridanius> yep
[02:36] <SirEndure> Guild Keeps -- In battlegrounds.....
[02:36] <Anti-Gremlin> outdoor vednor shops, bank storage (so it can be called), player ran taverns
[02:36] <SirEndure> would rock
[02:36] <TuBoy> Everything the topic took up. I'd love to have a home that does it all
[02:36] <Vlood> guild house yes... others NO
[02:36] <osiris`> i think it should be a workshop!!!!
[02:36] <Anti-Gremlin> guild homes
[02:36] <Dupsi> there shoudl eb huge houses for the rich and shacks for the poor too
[02:36] <Bullet230> I would be ok for many different things.. it all depends on how they handle it.. =/
[02:36] <Soun> i also hope that housing will be subject to pvp
[02:36] <osiris`> i think it should be a workshop!!!! for the guild that is
[02:36] <Anti-Gremlin> heaps of reasons for housing
[02:36] <Valconeye> I think wow should support all aspects of housing
[02:36] <Cha0sGrenade> I would love to see destructible buildings in WoW. Like Creeps spawn from a Barracks unless you destroy it
[02:36] <Soun> so you can go blow somebodys house up
[02:36] <Dupsi> everyone should eb able to get a house *with enough eoffort*
[02:36] <SyliconSlycer> what if you included withthe game a design program, and if peopole wanted to they could design their own homes and then upload em to you
[02:36] <cmthornton> all of the above, but i like the idea of player built towns with temple shops etc
[02:36] <Cha0sGrenade> same for NPCs
[02:36] <Eluna> everyone should be able to have a shop or guld hall or cottage
[02:36] <Soun> and steal their tv's
[02:36] <SirEndure> Inns, Taverns, Player Run Businesses
[02:37] <Bullet230> Cha0s meee too =)
[02:37] <Apricoth> I would love to have my own home that I can furnish and have a little shop in the back or near my WoW home. :)
[02:37] <TuBoy> Trophy room would be great
[02:37] <Dupsi> yah Eluna I agree as I said i :D
[02:37] <Valconeye> player run buisness yes, but you need to hire an npc
[02:37] <Dauntl3ss> Shops could be run by Players.. From inn to bank, and they could have an NPC helper
[02:37] <SirEndure> yeah
[02:37] <TuBoy> store your old favourite weapons
[02:37] <SyliconSlycer> one thing, please make it so that you can play the game with game cards, not credit card only, as not everyone has a credit card
[02:37] <Dauntl3ss> lol, same as Valconeye
[02:37] <SirEndure> for when they aren't in
[02:37] <Valconeye> lol
[02:37] <Kheldon> I'm just hoping it's not 'instanced' housing...in my option immersion would drop dead if that happenend.
[02:37] <zigon> how about a mall?
[02:37] <Eluna> how do you prevent it becoming like UO? You limit the space for towns... and GUILDS HAVE TO COMPETE FOR THE SPACE (sorry for caps).
[02:37] <Apricoth> Haha
[02:37] <Anti-Gremlin> vendor houses are a must.
[02:37] <Cha0sGrenade> ya but Kheldon I
[02:37] <Dupsi> there can be a Bazzar instead Zigon
[02:37] <Anti-Gremlin> but building limitations have to be put in place
[02:37] <Anti-Gremlin> we all know how bad it got in UO
[02:37] <Bullet230> if everyone wants a shop, the first 2-3 months everyone play will be filled.. however if they made a type of "zone" for crafters where there could be tons and tons of shops.. that would work?
[02:38] <Dauntl3ss> Eluna more servers
[02:38] <Cha0sGrenade> would rather have instance than none :(
[02:38] <Valconeye> Hey, if a guild decides to destroy another guilds house, im all for that
[02:38] <TuBoy> yep. But if not instanced, wouldnt you have a MASSACRE of homes? Built all over the place?
[02:38] <Apricoth> Same here Valcon. lol
[02:38] <Soun> there should be different materials, like a wood house could be burned down but not a stone house
[02:38] <Valconeye> lol
[02:38] <Soun> and if you are in a guild war you can go burn down their guild hall
[02:38] <Eluna> bullet: why not go to war with a guild if you want the space for their town
[02:38] <Cha0sGrenade> good point bullet
[02:38] <Dupsi> no you should eb able to buidl anywhere, if you build near a spawn point then dont be supprised when your place gets knocked down
[02:38] <Tridanius> we can't know about the availability of houses, there are too many variables that only Blizzard can answer
[02:38] <Dariuas> I think everyone should live in tents!
[02:38] <Eluna> tuboy: not if you limit where buildings can be put.
[02:38] <Anti-Gremlin> Dauntl3ss: that is a bad way of doing things, saying go on another server
[02:38] <Kheldon> Dauntl3ss: Larger landmass ;)
[02:38] <Tridanius> we can only hop they will come up with a cool solution
[02:38] <TuBoy> True Eluna
[02:38] <SirEndure> Housing should be REALLY hard to get, it should not be easy or cheep to purchase or maintain a house
[02:38] <Apricoth> There should be limitations or you are gonna have some severe eye-sores like in UO
[02:38] <Vlood> Crafters should go outside town and build a fire place and craft their stuff.. no workshops
[02:38] <Anti-Gremlin> you should not be limited to which server you must play on due to the reason of what is happening in the one you wish to join
[02:38] <Dauntl3ss> Well, blizz have told us that the world will be giant
[02:38] <Bullet230> Eluna, well then not everyone will have an equal chance.. large guilds would rule the world
[02:38] <Eluna> so there's certain special 'village' locations that a guild can take over, make their own, and build a town.
[02:39] <Dupsi> no everyone shoudl eb bale to get some kind of lodging
[02:39] <Dariuas> Remember, this is warcraft!
[02:39] <Eluna> bullet: then you have to compete
[02:39] <Cha0sGrenade> Large guilds SHOULD rule the world :)
[02:39] <MrObesity> wonder if u can hire guatds 2 guard ur house
[02:39] <Soun> houses need to be destroyable
[02:39] <Eluna> the world isn't going to be handed to you
[02:39] <Cha0sGrenade> then it would be closer to reality
[02:39] <Dupsi> players shoudl be bale to make littl eplaye towns
[02:39] <Eluna> If you can't beat em, join em.
[02:39] <Dalgar> races should rule the world, not guilds
[02:39] <Anti-Gremlin> the world may be gaint
[02:39] <zigon> i want a mall.... where players can rent out places to sell their goods and loot
[02:39] <Dariuas> HEHE: What do you get when you mix a blacksmith with a Zepplin?
[02:39] <Dupsi> no Guilds should rule the world
[02:39] <Soviet-KGB> Hey guys, is it that hard to form coherent sentences without awful typos? Geez.
[02:39] <Anti-Gremlin> but there will be plenty of players as well
[02:39] <Soun> if someone steals my tv i want to find them and burn their house down with them in it
[02:39] <Apricoth> You cannot have the option of everyone having a house on ever stretch of land. It's unrealistic. Gotta strive for that choice land. If you don't get it, save up and buy property from another player. Simple as that.
[02:39] <Kheldon> Racse ruling parts is too static
[02:39] <Eluna> guilds should be the manifestation of racial conflict (back to previous topic)
[02:39] <Bullet230> Eluna.. that would be the lamest world.. 1 guild to rule them all BS?
[02:39] <Tridanius> I once suggested the possibility of building a boat instead of a house, pleanty of room for boats on the ocean
[02:39] <Cha0sGrenade> Guilds are players. Players should rule the world not NPCs
[02:39] <Anti-Gremlin> i also think the 1 house per account should apply
[02:39] <Dariuas> a Lead Zepplin!
[02:39] <Dauntl3ss> lol
[02:39] * Dupsi GUILDS!
[02:39] <Anti-Gremlin> making the house spam situation less possible
[02:40] * Dalgar RACES!
[02:40] <Dauntl3ss> n1 Dariuas
[02:40] <Apricoth> A house boat? Now that's interesting.
[02:40] <SyliconSlycer> yeah ok but any characters from that account can use that house
[02:40] * Dalgar ;)
[02:40] * Dupsi heheh
[02:40] <TuBoy> temporary tents would be cool. Like in the SS with the dwarves protecting their litte tents
[02:40] <Tridanius> you could furnish a bot just as you would a house
[02:40] <Tridanius> err boat
[02:40] <shinro> well i like to poop
[02:40] <Eluna> supply and demand... if all the land is taken, and you want a house or shop, you need to pay for it
[02:40] <Apricoth> Traveling tents is a good idea.
[02:40] <Soun> in any situation, the most powerful group will win
[02:40] <Anti-Gremlin> SyliconSlycer: if you give them a key yes =P
[02:40] <Dupsi> no boats!
[02:40] <Apricoth> Exactly Eluna. heh
[02:40] <Eluna> that or take land away from someone else.
[02:40] <agris> we should get to ride elephants
[02:40] <Dauntl3ss> I'm out.. school tomorrow..
[02:40] <Dauntl3ss> nn all
[02:40] <Cha0sGrenade> watch it Shinro dont go that route
[02:40] <agris> and have crafters craft them saddles
[02:40] <Soun> look at iraq for example
[02:40] <Eluna> imagine orcs & humans fighting over a village spot.
[02:40] <Anti-Gremlin> hehe school =P
[02:40] <TuBoy> Thats not very fair Eluna. What about ppl who come into the game late?
[02:40] <Apricoth> Fight for the land. Not a bad idea.
[02:40] <zigon> i want a pack kodo to carry all my loot i find
[02:40] <Dupsi> we should be able to by carravans and go around with them an dlive in them
[02:40] <SirEndure> house boats are awesome ideas
[02:41] <SirEndure> and carravans
[02:41] <Dariuas> Join the army they say! See the world they say! I'd rather be sailing!
[02:41] <agris> and elephants
[02:41] <Anti-Gremlin> house boats... rather interesting.
[02:41] <Bullet230> Eluna, how will that work for the people who dont ever PvP? they are just screwed because of something they do not like? (I am all for PvP.. but I know a LOT of people arent)
[02:41] <Dupsi> if they can skin!
[02:41] <zigon> kodo with a tent?
[02:41] <Dupsi> then i'd go aorund punching hole sin everyones house! hahah
[02:41] <Eluna> bullet: then they buy a house from someone who DOES pvp.
[02:41] <Soviet-KGB> needs more ogre caverns
[02:41] <Kheldon> Gah, well it's been nice all. But IT's getting too late for me :) night all and keep up the discussions ;)
[02:41] <Apricoth> Well, if someone is not in PvP mode and obtains land without fighting for it, no one should be able to take it away from you.
[02:41] <Dupsi> good night
[02:41] <Dalgar> ogres should be playable race
[02:42] <Apricoth> If you are not in PvP mode by all rights you are untouchable.
[02:42] <Anti-Gremlin> Eluna: having to need PvP to gather housing doesnt seem right to me
[02:42] <Bullet230> Too many issues arise, people who dont pvp should ahve equal chances to get land
[02:42] <Eluna> we don't know that there's a pvp mode
[02:42] <Apricoth> But that's a whole different problem. lol
[02:42] <Cha0sGrenade> with two headed ogres two people could play them at once :P
[02:42] <Soun> PVP should be part of the game
[02:42] <Apricoth> PvP is optional
[02:42] <Cha0sGrenade> one leg and an arm a piece
[02:42] <Vlood> blizzard will make 4 guilds in each town, then you can choose, the leader will be the one with most votes every 3 third month.. :)
[02:42] <Apricoth> If you hav chosen not to be PvP then you should not be able to be touched.
[02:42] <Eluna> anti: or be the first one to a spot, or just make enough money to buy it from someone
[02:42] <Tridanius> but how is pvp optional? pvp in arena olny?
[02:42] <Anti-Gremlin> eww
[02:42] <Eluna> apri: yes, but we don't know if it's mode-based or zone based
[02:42] <Kheldon> Hopefully there's another system then PvP areas though, they are so resctricting :/ (willing to discuss followups tomorrow, night)
[02:42] <Tridanius> we don't know
[02:42] <Apricoth> True
[02:42] <agris> there should be a lot of farming in this game, farming is fun! builds economy
[02:42] <Eluna> I think it's more likely zone based
[02:42] <Bullet230> They have arleady stated that if you dont want to PvP, you dont have to.. that will not work with peoplem conquering shops and lands
[02:42] <Anti-Gremlin> i do not like the system where if you do not wish to pvp you dont get hurt
[02:42] <Apricoth> PvP is optional. It has been stated in the FAQ
[02:43] <Anti-Gremlin> that system just seems sooo wrong to me in sooo many ways
[02:43] <Apricoth> Once you choose PvP that is it.
[02:43] <basil> castles and such should be in pvp areas

Mounts
[02:43] <Dariuas> Ok, now my next favoirte topic! Mounting! (er)
[02:43] <Dariuas> Question: Blizzard has announced mounts and the gameplay video shows horses galloping all over. Should mounts be like they were in EQ? Obscenely expensive toys for the rich? Or should they be available to mid level classes? Or should they simply get stronger and faster the more you pay for them?

[02:43] <RJO> ...
[02:43] <Eluna> rofl dari
[02:43] <Soviet-KGB> mounts should be rentable
[02:43] <Valconeye> Kudo beasts!!
[02:43] <Dupsi> everyone!
[02:43] <MrObesity> stronger horses?
[02:43] <Cha0sGrenade> Wolves for Orcs.....................Or I quit :P
[02:43] <Anti-Gremlin> skills for mounts... hrmm..
[02:43] <Eluna> Expensive, range of options, but you need to feed/stable them (money) armor them (money).
[02:43] <Dupsi> any mid-to-hi level char should have one
[02:43] <Soviet-KGB> cha0s, what about wyverns?
[02:43] <Anti-Gremlin> i actually have to think about that one
[02:43] <Bullet230> I think mounts should be mid-level creatures inwhich you can make them faster and stronger by using them more and more and training them (such as gainning levels0
[02:44] <Cha0sGrenade> Dwarves should need ladders to get up on their horses too
[02:44] <Eluna> But a mount should stay with you like Shadowfax... come running if you call.
[02:44] <SirEndure> hrmmmm jousting.......
[02:44] <basil> I think the Taurens should enslave the Centaurs
[02:44] <Vlood> Zeppelins.. goblins should make a public tranportations system :)
[02:44] <Valconeye> maybe with Guild Halls, there will be a stable and such, or a pin.
[02:44] <Soviet-KGB> or they could just ride Ponys
[02:44] <Anti-Gremlin> i think there should be a whole range of "levels" for mounts
[02:44] <Tridanius> should depend on your skill, low level can ride donkeys
[02:44] <basil> and then ride them into battle
[02:44] <zigon> kodos... I want a kodo... to not only carry my stuff, but to ride... it would be a mobile home.. yay!
[02:44] <Soun> mounts should be something that everyone has access to, but VERY limited access to more superior mounts
[02:44] <Anti-Gremlin> horses being for mid-level
[02:44] <Null> MOUNTS SHOULD BE TRAINABLE
[02:44] <blackwigga> you guys think there should be a taming class
[02:44] <blackwigga> ?
[02:44] <Anti-Gremlin> and maybe donkeys for low level? =P
[02:44] <agris> yea
[02:44] <Null> THE MORE YOU USE THEM THE STRONGER THEY GET
[02:44] <Anti-Gremlin> taming should def be in
[02:44] <Soun> and
[02:44] <agris> horse tamers
[02:44] <Dupsi> mounts are like a skill anyone can get them but not everyone can get good at them
[02:44] <Eluna> black we might see pet classes ya
[02:44] <Soun> you should be able to KILL other peoples mounts
[02:44] <Cha0sGrenade> Good point Null
[02:44] <Soviet-KGB> Hey, stop typing in caps doofus
[02:44] <Bullet230> yes thats what I said Null hehe
[02:44] <Valconeye> im gonna be the first dwarf to ride a kudo beast!
[02:44] <blackwigga> you guys think your horse should be able to attack?
[02:44] <Null> sorry wasnt reading
[02:44] <Dupsi> no