February 13th, 2004

[01:00] <tabrizia> Hello everyone and welcome to our 8th, World of
Warcraft community chat. What we will be doing tonight is discussing
various questions about World of Warcraft. How this chat works is I will
moderate the room and post a question, then I will unmoderate the room
and let you all discuss the question.
[01:00] <tabrizia> Once the question has been discussed I will moderate
the room again and post the next question. We ask that you try to stay
on topic please. The chat log will be posted on wow.stratics.com for
your convenience once the chat is over. Thank you all for attending tonight.
[01:01] <tabrizia> Our First Questions tonight is: What sort of chances
should the single player have in moving the story line forward? Or
should it be limited to very large number of people/guilds only?
[01:01] * tabrizia sets mode: -m
[01:01] <Killaken> NO
[01:01] <tabrizia> And you are free to discuss now :)
[01:01] <ariqs> There is going to be single player?
[01:01] <Locke_ToM> Single player means soloing
[01:01] <wanlorll> He should of said Solo Player
[01:01] <Killaken> i got a quistion?
[01:01] <Gagi> there shouldnt me a single player
[01:01] <DevilHimself> single player as an individual
[01:01] <Para> he meant a single player
[01:01] <Gagi> but they should have single quests
[01:01] <Thulen> I think it means individual
[01:01] <Kanreax> ;p
[01:02] <Celest|pK> should be limited to world events imo
[01:02] <Rovman> He doesnt mean "single player" as such, but soloign as
a player
[01:02] <Quazar> i think it should be a combination of both...similar to FFXI
[01:02] <Killaken> i got a question
[01:02] <Rovman> soling*
[01:02] <Ritual> I think the single player should very much be able to
change the story plot on his own.
[01:02] <DevilHimself> Progressing the story line shouldn't be limited
to large groups or guilds.
[01:02] <Ritual> You shouldnt force people into engaging in groups.
[01:02] <Matto> i think it should be a little challanging, but not too hard
[01:02] <Okasu> It'd be nice if the solo player could influence things,
but it'll never happen
[01:02] <Matto> something to get the feel of the game
[01:02] <Okasu> That's left to the power guilds
[01:02] <[TB]Nickname> I'm not sure if most will be with their Guild for support, not going at it alone, unless you are a newb and you find a clan or guild
[01:02] <Rovman> I would say that soloing should be very possible, and
be able to further the story alot by solo'ing. But there should be times
when groups are needed
[01:03] <IOwnWarcraftHardcore> Question, will there be several different
views you can use instead of just the first person?
[01:03] <Kheldon> Imo, the single player (soloer) should have lot of
ability to play and explore the game. But with realistic limits like not
being able to take down the toughest mobs or making it very long in the
most risky areas.
[01:03] <Celest|pK> but a change in the storyline must affect all
shards/servers right ?
[01:03] <blooshoo> while it would be all romantic n stuff to let a
single player move the story forward, wouldnt it all get "done" rather
quickly, and then the story would "run out" :P
[01:03] <Ihad> no SINGLE player should be able to MOVE the OVERALL
storyline. However I could imagine having personalized "story lines"
SINGLE players COULD move forward which would affect players
connected/related with this player, i.e. through friendship, guild,
ally, etc.
[01:03] <Kheldon> small chances, but nothing big on changing course of
action on the story imo
[01:03] <Rovman> afterall, its supposed to be massively multiplayer,
community and grouping should be a large focus.
[01:03] <[TB]Nickname> Solo is a good idea to learn, and show your
strenghs to others, then join a team to work with and grow
[01:03] <Egg_> i believe that whole concept goes against what blizzard
is trying to do with wow... and that is, avoid exclusion
[01:03] <PoiSonMueL> hi people
[01:04] <Egg_> while true, they do want you to be unique, they don't
want 1 person to finish something, and everyone else wish they were that
1 person
[01:04] <tabrizia> okay guys 2 minute warning on the question :)
[01:04] <Celest|pK> Imo, world events ONLY should affect the story line,
and the affect will differ from shards
[01:04] <[TB]Nickname> Point taken Egg... but it could be a great
benefit to a team
[01:05] <Isenbright> I hope you will :)
[01:05] <Matto> i agree with whoever said it should be realistic
[01:05] <tabrizia> okay guys time for the next question
[01:05] <tabrizia> What will the challenges of tradeskills be? As it
seems now, the challenges in tradeskills lies in simple PvE; if you can
battle your way to the resources/trainers, you can create anything.
Shouldn't there be any difficulties and challenges that actually has a
basis in the tradeskills? for example chance of failure? How fun would
it be to remove the chance of dying when in PvE battle?
[01:05] <tabrizia> and go :)
[01:06] <Kheldon> mo, there should be plenty more challenge to crafting
than just the trouble of finding the resources.
[01:06] <Ritual> removing chance to die? i wont be a part
[01:06] <PoiSonMueL> welcome to warcraft, the unorganized game
[01:06] <Anemone> Tradeskills while fun, are not imo the focus of an mmorpg
[01:06] <Anemone> Thus comparing them to pve is not accurate
[01:06] <Anemone> And since no one has built high end items
[01:06] <Anemone> You honestly have no idea what challenges might lie ahead
[01:07] <[DJ]Bergman> sorry but PvE?
[01:07] <DevilHimself> crafters are the support for the warriors
[01:07] <Ritual> PvE = player vs computers
[01:07] <DevilHimself> but there should be a chance of dying in PvE
[01:07] <Fuscian|class> later losers
[01:07] <Kheldon> And it's really not up to one person to determine what
is or isn't the focus in a game that's supposed to let you play a role. :)
[01:07] <Rovman> I think when crafting there should be a chance that it
fails, but as it stands now i beleive aslong as you have the equipment,
you will always successfully create the item you intended
[01:07] <qatw3rk> ceaselessly clicking and gathering resources for
combines becomes a chore, especially if its a very high fail rate on
combines... if it's a chore it's not fun to do and it will turn people away
[01:07] <qatw3rk> but if there is no risk or challenge it can be boring too
[01:07] <Ritual> rovman i disagree
[01:07] <Celest|pK> imo, there should be a chance of failure
[01:07] <Martesk5> Tab> Trade skills are nice to have, but obviously not
heavily focused on from the start in WoW. Other titles, like EQ2 seem
to put more stock in them. However, this is WARcraft.
[01:07] <Egg_> Kheldon, WoW isn't set up to have trade skills as a
focus... Blizzard has already said you won't be advancing your character
through trade skills alone
[01:07] <Anemone> I will say that in EQ, where crafting had chances and
challenges, there was an extremely high difference between the "have's"
and the "have not's"
[01:07] <Rixxen> I still say that players should be able to make the
most powerful items except artifacts
[01:07] <Ritual> i just think there neeeds to be variation in items
people make
[01:07] <Rovman> equipment = resources, recipe items
[01:07] <Ihad> tradeskills should be risk free in as much as it shouldn’t
involve "dying", after all a merchant hires bodyguards to protect his
caravan, if someone needs resources that are located in a dangerous
environment then why not hire someone to go get it...
[01:07] <Quazar> personally, i believe that if removing chance of
failure is much more realistic. once you know how to make something,
you know how to make it. it's as simple as that
[01:07] <Anemone> That is bad for a game overall, it destroys the morale
of the "have not's"
[01:08] <Anemone> The challenge will be in obtaining rare materials I think
[01:08] <Kheldon> Egg: That's not what I mean. I mean that tradeskills
have no challenge. The only challenge tradeskills have, is hnting in
PvE for the resources. Seeing as you -can't- fail to craft something
[01:08] <cheapt> omg "u failed crafting ur uber item" og plz no. skip that
[01:08] <Quazar> also, the crafting system seems complex enough that
battling for the resources and the ability to make the item is challenge
in itself
[01:08] <Killaken> ok ehres my opinion on the game itll be big at first
and this game is only for hardcore blizzard fans but after 4 months or
so ppl wil start leaving it and come to a long term game with end game
content
[01:08] <Anemone> Rare materials once obtained should not be wasteable
[01:08] <Quazar> recipes are NOT tradable.
[01:08] <Anemone> Its a timesink that just stinks
[01:08] <Ritual> guys type in coherent non novel sentences
[01:09] <Ritual> theres 184 people
[01:09] * Ritual shuts up
[01:09] <Kheldon> Anemone: So is making it down to the bottom of a
dungeon and then failing to kill the boss.
[01:09] <isopropanol> like Rovman said, with the resources, you'll
always create the item...the quality of the item may vary however
[01:09] <Kheldon> do you think -that- time sink should be removed as
well? To avoid frustration? :P
[01:09] <Anemone> It takes far less time to go and kill that boss again
or try to, then it does to get many rare material items
[01:10] <Kheldon> Not necessarily
[01:10] <Para> time sink = bad
[01:10] <Anemone> I think the timesink should be carefully applied, not
heavily
[01:10] <Kheldon> blizzard said it'd take weeks to clear out the larger
dungeons
[01:10] <Para> within reason
[01:10] <Yukichi__AFK> :/
[01:10] <Anemone> I don't want to see people sitting at their keyboards
for 72 hours, with a can to pee in waiting for an item to drop for the
third time
[01:10] <Stahl> wow is set for a 2004 release?
[01:10] <Yukichi> Anyone know when they are picking beta particiapnts?
[01:10] <Celest|pK> imo, theres not enough official info on tradeskills
in wow
[01:10] <Ashlar> Progressing tradeskills should always be reasonably
boring, the whole idea being that one person is providing a service for
many, if there are a lot of crafters (from it being fun or easy), then
it sorta breaks down. You just end up producing your own items and it
might as well be a character skill at that point.
[01:10] <Anemone> I seem to recall a certain hippogriff that required
that same thing in EQ
[01:11] <Thalakos|-W-> They have picked some already
[01:11] <isopropanol> the reasoning of blizzard is something like this:
if you quest long and hard to gather the resources, then try to create
an item and everything goes poof, then you're not having fun anymore
[01:11] <Rovman> Ashlar: in wow "Crafters" will not be seperate from
normal combat classes.
[01:11] <tabrizia> Okay 2 minute warning on this question :)
[01:11] <Anemone> Exactly Iso
[01:11] <Rovman> every class has the ability to craft without hindering
their combat *at all*
[01:11] <Yukichi> mm i better check my email
[01:11] <Kheldon> What if you're working long and hard to clear a
dungeon to get to the boss, and then die ebfore you come to the door.
That's not having fun either.
[01:11] <isopropanol> even if you only have the chance of one thing
going poof, it may be the most difficult thing to get back
[01:11] <Kheldon> My point is that -all- aspects of the game should have
challenges
[01:11] <Anemone> I think that's a different scale of failure Khel
[01:11] <Para> can't you return to instances?
[01:12] <Quazar> Anemone: the scope of the crafting system in this game
is not such that you have to monotonously hit "make last" 15000 times
and you can attempt to make everything. THAT is a meaningless
timesink. WOW is such that you must work to get the recipes and
materials, which add adventure to the otherwise dull life of a craftsman.
[01:12] <Anemone> yes
[01:12] <Killaken> thal
[01:12] <Kheldon> and not challenges that are related to another
playstyle, like PvPE
[01:12] <Killaken> zip 9it your playing L2 with me
[01:12] <Yukichi> you shouldt work hard for hours on end only to lose
EVERYTHING
[01:12] <Killaken> :)
[01:12] <Kheldon> *PvE
[01:12] <Rovman> if the game is too easy it is not fun
[01:12] <Thalakos|-W-> heheh
[01:12] <Rovman> same with it being too difficult.
[01:12] <Martesk5> My concern for tradekills in WoW is crafters being
too dependant on other crafters. Like you may need an herb for a
*sword*. It seems to be a long way around to get from point A to B.
[01:12] <Anemone> I like adventuring to get the materials
[01:12] <Deagol> will there be a free for all pk server thats really the
only thing that matters to me
[01:12] <rommus> sorry but getting your tail kicked by a boss after
hours of fighting to get there can be fun
[01:12] <Anemone> I think its a good idea who's time has come
[01:13] <Egg_> see martesk... that to me implies a strength of how it
will work
[01:13] <AnarchyAo> is this the world of warcraft chat
[01:13] <Egg_> if you rely on other crafters
[01:13] <Celest|pK> its NOT fun if its easy
[01:13] <Anemone> yes Ana
[01:13] <AnarchyAo> thanx
[01:13] <Rovman> how about if you were to craft something that failed,
you would get some of the recipe items back
[01:13] <Egg_> then you'll create an economy
[01:13] <isopropanol> kheldon, i think the item should be crafted
flawlessly, but the quality of the item may range from "awesome" to "crap"
[01:13] <Egg_> with trading and whatnot
[01:13] <Anemone> I agree too easy is sometimes frustrating too
[01:13] <Rovman> sort of an inbetween.
[01:13] * [SoL]-Fuds is now known as [SoL]-Fudsafk
[01:13] <Anemone> But its far easier to make it harder than the reverse
[01:13] <Ans|404> I would like to see WoW establish a PVP system much
like DAOC
[01:13] <Ihad> most crafting system knock themselves out by offering
better or similar items via the loot system
[01:13] <Rovman> you wouldnt lose everything, yet there will be a bit of
challenge to it
[01:13] <Para> dude
[01:13] <Shindere-SH> Rovman, you wont fail-- chance has it, you wont be
able to attempt a craft if you arent skilled enough... that way you dont
lose ingredients.
[01:13] <Kheldon> iso: that imo would be part of the challenge in crafting
[01:14] <Martesk5> I understand Egg and agree. But some crafts are more
appealing than others, which could lead to shortage or monopoly.
[01:14] <Quazar> no game has ever gotten PVP correct, and i'm not
holding my breath for WOW either
[01:14] <Shindere-SH> the challenge is getting your skill high enough to
successfully create it.
[01:14] <Anemone> I think you ought to have a knowledge of how hard
items for recipes are to get, before you can say crafting should have
failures
[01:14] <SA|Sexpool> Baby, when I think about you. I think about
looooooooove...
[01:14] <tabrizia> okay guys onto the next question
[01:14] <tabrizia> How consistance will the Warcraft lore be? Will we
see Alliance and Horde members/NPCs harassing Warlock characters? Since
both sides are against the demonic powers? Wouldn't it be against
continuity for the average Alliance or Horde member to simply accept
someone who gets their powers from demons, after all that has happened
to both factions due to said demons?
[01:14] * Kheldon waits to hear some responses before he starts ;)
[01:15] <Anemone> I think that's partially for the RP to decide
[01:15] <Martesk5> Warlocks..I don't understand why either are accept by
the Horde or Alliance after the Reign of Chaos.
[01:15] <kaie> hah
[01:15] <Anemone> I think the NPC's should behave in accordance with the
Lore
[01:15] <Rovman> In wow at different levels, the best possible item for
you will come form a certain area. At some levels the only way to get
the "best" weapon for you, at that time will be from crafting, and at
other levels it will be from lotting
[01:15] <SuperQuack> Warlocks shouldn't get harrassed...
[01:15] <Rovman> looting* ;)
[01:15] <Kheldon> Yeah, NPCs should..but the player should have the
choice too
[01:15] <Killaken> tf
[01:15] <Killaken> wtf
[01:15] * EviLTeChNiQuE has quit IRC (Write Error: Broken pipe )
[01:15] <Killaken> WTF
[01:15] <Ritual> I think its fine that you shape your faction standing
and you get attacked by non faction supporters
[01:16] <SuperQuack> if they have any sort of mind control power, they
should be worshipped
[01:16] <Ritual> if im a human i expect to be attacked by orc's
[01:16] <Deagol> wonering if this is an option
[01:16] <Deagol> like
[01:16] <Kheldon> Since both Alliance and Horde has had bad experience
with WArlocks and their powers, both factions should generally start out
hating/being opposed to that class
[01:16] <Deagol> sorry im asing if this is an option
[01:16] <kaie> go to darktide in ac and pvp
[01:16] <AnarchyAo> if u want pvp go play counterstrike
[01:16] <Deagol> ok
[01:16] <Ritual> and i only expect special circumstacnces for alliances
[01:17] <Deagol> yeah
[01:17] <Deagol> its be fun
[01:17] <Corion-Necras> Kaie :) in DAoC you dont have to pvp if you dont want to
[01:17] <Deagol> errr itd
[01:17] <Killaken> hmmm
[01:17] <Corion-Necras> consented pvp is very nice
[01:17] <Grei-UDL> pvp is the catylist for fun rp.
[01:17] <Quazar> Cisabian: to date, there has never been a player skill
based pvp system in any game ever made.
[01:17] <Anemone> If I were adventuresome in how things got set up, I'd
say every time you healed/buffed a member of a realm (not faction but
background) that you "should" hate, you'd earn bad faction pts with the
npc's
[01:17] <Quazar> it's all item and connection based
[01:17] <Aravil|Baalur> DAoC is based around PvP, like it or not
[01:17] <Aravil|Baalur> but that's another discussion
[01:17] <Quazar> the kid with mommy's credit card always wins
[01:17] <Cisabian> have ya played shadowbane yet quazar? :P
[01:17] <Kheldon> Anemone: Sounds great
[01:17] <kAxen> Killaken word! :D
[01:17] <Deagol> oh please once everyone got on cable UO dueling was
very balanced for a while
[01:17] <Grei-UDL> nah. not consented. i mean consented is fine, but we
need a pure pvp server for the more hardcore pvpers
[01:18] <Kheldon> At least something to show that the Warcraft world all
of a sudden isn't accepting and loving a power that is the cause of all
their demise :P
[01:18] <AnarchyAo> if u want pvp go play counterstrike
[01:18] <Killaken> lol even if this game had pvp looks to cartoony to be
hardcore
[01:18] <Anemone> and I can name quite a few others
[01:18] <Cisabian> rp in sb died out in beta =/
[01:18] <Aravil|Baalur> What does PvP have to do with Roleplaying anyway?
[01:18] <Grei-UDL> play on mourning. lol.
[01:18] <Killaken> i wouldnt feel right id feel like im pking little kids
[01:18] <Grei-UDL> TONS of rp
[01:18] <Killaken> lol
[01:18] <Anemone> anyway I'd like to stick to the questions after your
retort
[01:18] <Grei-UDL> in mourning
[01:18] <Ihad> free for all PVP works only in sammler groups
[01:18] <Ihad> smaller
[01:18] <Deagol> why do all you nerds keep saying IF U WANT PVP GET
LOST...how the heck does having a pvp server option effect you at all?
[01:18] <Shindere-SH> Aravil, if its Horde vs Alliance... that should
answer it
[01:19] <Ritual> Killken warcraft has always been this style
[01:19] <Ritual> lets keep it constructive
[01:19] <Grei-UDL> True Deagol.
[01:19] * SA|Suxpool is now known as billy
[01:19] <Quazar> Deagol: you can delude yourself if you'd like, but PvP
in UO has never been fair. it has always been the person with the best
connection or the person with mommy's credit card.
[01:19] <Grei-UDL> that’s why we want our own server.
[01:19] <Anemone> I would bet there will be a pvp server - just based on
a lot of folks who want one
[01:19] <Aravil|Baalur> what I meant Shindere was, if you roleplay or
not, that has nothing to do with PvP
[01:19] <Ritual> Deagol its warcraft
[01:19] <Ritual> "war"
[01:19] <Cisabian> its easier to let the designers have their fun trying
to balance the pvp and carebear stuff ;)
[01:19] <Ritual> "craft"
[01:19] <Aravil|Baalur> two completely different things
[01:19] <Deagol> thanks man
[01:19] <Deagol> i can read man
[01:19] * Anemone stays quiet for next question
[01:19] <Shindere-SH> Oh, true-- but PvP is enhanced for RPers who take
a stance against the opposing faction
[01:19] <Celest|pK> Quazar imo, uo is the game with most "skill" in pvp atm
[01:19] <b0ksah> PvP .. is the way forward ... but Blizzard wants to
make WoW a game for every one .. so they have to balance it ... (my
meaning)
[01:19] <Killaken> lol well heres how its gonna be carebears play WoW
and PvPers play L2 with the exception of a few
[01:19] <Ritual> if you want to play econmic simulator stay in your
blacksmith home
[01:20] <Ritual> else dont venture in woods
[01:20] <Killaken> and EQ2 will just get dumped
[01:20] <Grei-UDL> PvP is good for pvp cause it fuels and settle disputes.
[01:20] <Shindere-SH> it adds another level: competition
[01:20] <Cisabian> oh well im going to read all of this lil chat in an
hr or more ;) afk heh
[01:20] <Karu_aweh> EQ2 get dumped?
[01:20] <Aravil|Baalur> I wouldn't say that.. but PvP opens a new area
for the bastards who want to ruin other people's day :) heh
[01:20] <Kheldon> Ritual: You can't play a pure crafter in WoW :P
[01:20] <Aravil|Baalur> thinking Shadowbane for instance
[01:20] <Quazar> Celest|pK: fair enough, but it's still based 49%
connection, 50% items, and 1% actual skill.
[01:20] <Killaken> meaning itll get caught up in between L2 and WoW
[01:20] <Kheldon> You simply can't advance in the skills without gaining
levels fighting
[01:20] <Ihad> want to be a pure crafter? play MEO
[01:20] <Ritual> even better then
[01:20] <Killaken> and itll get owned imo
[01:20] <Ritual> more people to kill
[01:20] <Shindere-SH> You probably could Kheldon, if someone else
brought you the stuff to craft with
[01:20] <Egg_> no
[01:21] <Shindere-SH> you would never get skilled enough to make stuff
past your lvl1 tradeskills tho
[01:21] <b0ksah> But hey Blizzard madr Warcraft, Warcraft 2, Starcraft
and Warcraft 3 ... so I guess some kind of PvP will there be in the game
...all otner will go against logic
[01:21] <Shindere-SH> :-)
[01:21] <Egg_> you won't advance in level crafting
[01:21] <Rovman> yes but the point is there is no point
[01:21] <Art-Werks-LOV> Shadowbane only failed because there was no
accountibility for citiless people
[01:21] <Kheldon> Shindere: No..because you can't raise your skill caps
without fighting to gain levels
[01:21] <Kheldon> and levels set your skillcaps
[01:21] <Anemone> Ok one more comment, if the pvp as it stands isn't
enough to keep a game population playing, they can open it up some if
thats what the players want :)
[01:21] <Celest|pK> Quazar well, connection has always been a problem
with uo, items due to aos
[01:21] <Deagol> quazar...once everyone got highsped internet a lot of
people were teh same speed....and in halberd/UOR days deuling was hella
balanced and highly based on skill
[01:21] <Rovman> getting high skill levels in crafting will not have
adverse effects at all, on your combat ability
[01:21] <Deagol> ure uneduacted or never pvped
[01:21] <Grei-UDL> rp w/ pvp =joe:die mortal|bob:never|joe kills bob.
rp w/o pvp=joe:die mortal|bob:never|awkward silence
[01:21] <Deagol> if u dont beleieve that
[01:21] <LambChowder> Goons, report in
[01:21] <Ritual> Deagol youll have better weapons?
[01:21] <Ritual> how is that not advancing?
[01:22] <Quazar> Celest|pK: i'm talking not post-aos, i'm talking all
the way back from pre-UOR to current.
[01:22] * Kapitan|WCTourny is now known as Kapitan|WC3Tournament
[01:22] <billy> i fell down the stairs; thus i cannot report
[01:22] <Ihad> next Q
[01:22] <Anemone> :(
[01:22] <tabrizia> okay guys 2 minute warning on this question :)
[01:22] <LambChowder> great billy
[01:22] <Afgar> community!
[01:22] <Celest|pK> Quazar then i dont agree with you
[01:22] <Grei-UDL> no one is allowed to complain about uo anymore.
[01:22] * Afgar embraces the community!
[01:22] <Celest|pK> :)
[01:22] <b0ksah> but PvsP isn't all ... but it's thing many wants ...
but many wants PvE too ..soo what road to go
[01:22] <Zeon> Quazar, items were never a big deal in uo pvp until vanq
weapons become super common right around LBR release
[01:22] <Grei-UDL> i want QUALITY PvP and QUALITY Content.
[01:22] <Quazar> that's ok, i've never agreed with anyone who joined the
game after UOR. it went to shit.
[01:22] <Grei-UDL> period.
[01:22] <Anemone> Regarding faction, if you make it too swingy, or
interrupt people's ability to "play" for faction reasons you cause bad
things too
[01:23] <Afgar> Omgosh! We need pve!!!!!
[01:23] <Afgar> is there pve in wow?!?!
[01:23] <Deagol> no kidding, and when u dueled u had to use GM weapons
so...........
[01:23] <LambChowder> ZOMG
[01:23] <Aravil|Baalur> course there's PvE
[01:23] <Anemone> I've seen more than one guild broken apart over
faction issues
[01:23] <Aravil|Baalur> there's always PvE
[01:23] <Afgar> WOOT!
[01:23] <Deagol> items were not a fctor at all..
[01:23] <b0ksah> and the Beta will adress the Pvp problem ...so all who
get selected for beta ...amke you voice heard ..and say what way you
want the pvp to be formed
[01:23] <tabrizia> okay time to move on
[01:23] <tabrizia> What purpose should there be to join and play in
guilds? Should it just be a bunch of people playing or should the guild
have their own goals and playstyle (other than raiding) that is
supported by the game?
[01:23] <b0ksah> ;)
[01:23] <Mael> putt all the PvP RPvp RP and then the general riff raff
in the same game and let nature take it course, problem solved
[01:23] <b0ksah> we were having fun ... right ?
[01:23] <LambChowder> Deagol
[01:23] [01:24] <Afgar> Guilds are for to see who can kill mobs best!
[01:24] <Ritual> I think that guilds shoud participate in war and
complete say a raid on a gungeon
[01:24] <Quazar> Zeon: and what happens when one character has a vanq
and the other doesn't? the vanq character wins. it's not a question of
skill and never has been.
[01:24] <Ritual> or try to earn point for their faction
[01:24] <Aravil|Baalur> I want guild houses :)
[01:24] <kAxen> Mael or you make a pure pvp game and everyone is happy :>
[01:24] <Grei-UDL> guilds are about friends playing together. their
purpose should be up for them.
[01:24] <Shindere-SH> The guild should OBVIOUSLY have its own goals :-)
Different people want different things-- if they didn't, there would
only be ONE giant guild... because everyone would see eye to eye on
everything.
[01:24] <Anemone> If there are things for a guild to accomplish, pvp
warring or pve raiding, they will find their own reward in doing such
things successfully
[01:24] <Anemone> I don't think you need to encourage guilding - it
comes on its own really
[01:24] <Afgar> Omgosh I'm gonna start a guild!! We're gonna raid dragons!!!
[01:24] <Kheldon> Guilds should have more objectives than simply
fighting together. (if they wish to pursue them is another matter)
[01:24] <Deagol> if u arent interested in pvp then you really should
have no opinion on the game cause you'll be happy beating up the same
gimp monster for 2 years like u have been in EQ. whatever they throw at
u you'll accept and kill that monster until u get teh FiNe HeLMeNt of
OrCs BaNe. some of us care about balance so we can compete/pvp
[01:24] <Kheldon> Such as wars, Alliance/Horde territorial control
[01:24] <Ihad> guilds shoudl be able to unlock "guild skills" with
various beneficla effects
[01:25] <Kheldon> power struggles within factions
[01:25] <Killaken> there is guild skills in L2 soon
[01:25] <Anemone> However, that said, there do need to be "management
tools" available to a guild or its just a totally frustrating thing for
leading - which causes good people to not do it and bad guilds to live
[01:25] <Afgar> Guilds should be allowed to fight the most uber dragons!!!!
[01:25] <Killaken> :)
[01:25] <Art-Werks-LOV> guilds are one way of building a small comunity
of like minded individuals and whether or not the game makes plans for
them, they will be a part of the game
[01:25] <Ihad> which will be accessibel for all members equally
[01:25] <Mael> if it wasnt for Pk's and full time PvP'ers us roleplayers
wuldnt know how to fight each other
[01:25] <b0ksah> Guilds ... is social, group hunts ..and hunting party
in pvp Zones (donno about that ..again we'l see in the beta)
[01:25] <Shindere-SH> Guilds should not have anything beneficial other
than the ability to hang with others, form a community where you help
each other, etc. It would be unfair to those who play solo to implement
features specific for guilds, gives guilders an advantage
[01:25] <Kheldon> like taking over forts and towers that may give
temporary bonuses to the guild while their members are nearby
[01:25] <Art-Werks-LOV> bonus's shouldnt be needed but if anything,
increased communication should be allowed/incorporated
[01:26] <Mael> no one like schoolyard emoteing used as combat =/
[01:26] <Anemone> XP should be shared to all in guild who are present at
a given location fighting in the raid
[01:26] <Quazar> Deagol: sounds more like your style than mine...much
similar to the uo moongates, no?
[01:26] <Shindere-SH> that it should, art werks.
[01:26] <Deagol> there should be guilds with something that keeps track
of how many kills youve gotten on an enemy guild
[01:26] <Anemone> That is crucial
[01:26] <Deagol> no, moongates are for trash
[01:26] <Afgar> omg you mean you have enemeez in WoW!??!?!
[01:26] <Anemone> Currently the raid limit in EQ is causing guild issues
[01:26] <Deagol> always have been
[01:26] <Quazar> Deagol: incase you haven't noticed, that's all PvP in
UO is now.
[01:26] <Grei-UDL> Since we're talking about Warcraft, the purpose of
guilds should fit the world. For instance Undead Guilds should seek to
make things difficult for alliance and horde guilds.
[01:26] <Deagol> wel thats incorrect cause i still play
[01:26] <Deagol> but i wasnt even
[01:26] <Quazar> that and ganking at champ spawns
[01:26] <Deagol> tlaking aobut now
[01:26] <Kheldon> imo, guilds should have more indepth playstyle to
pursue if they wish to
[01:27] <Deagol> yeah its not ganking if the people at the spawn and the
raiders
[01:27] <tabrizia> okay guys 2 minute warning :)
[01:27] <Deagol> have the same numbers..
[01:27] * Impulse is now known as Impu|movies
[01:27] <Martesk> Being in a (good) guild is its reward in my opinion.
It's what I remember most out of any MMO I've played. The people I see
daily. Having tools to manage a guild are also important though.
[01:27] <Deagol> or at least comparable
[01:27] <Anemone> I'd say if you concentrate on making basic but strong
guild "tools" chat, management, raiding xp and aggro management, then
you can offer the "perks", such as special guild skills later in the game
[01:28] <Afgar> Guilds should get skills that make you better at killing
dragons. That would rock.
[01:28] <Quazar> mmm hmm, and since when have gankers EVER gone into a
fight fair? i have never seen it once in my 6 years with UO, and i
doubt i will ever see it.
[01:28] <Deagol> lolol
[01:28] <Kheldon> or guild playstyles! =P
[01:28] <Anemone> I'd start off slow in that area if I were you or you
will cause a lot of "you are no one unless you are in a huge guild"
[01:28] <Deagol> then you reall
[01:28] <tabrizia> Okay guys here is the next question:
[01:28] <tabrizia> To what extent should soloing be viable? Being able
to take on dragons and other legendary beasts by themselves or should
they at one point be a limit to what a single player can do? A limit not
too low to disourage soloing, but at the same time not too high to
remove the need for player interaction?
[01:28] * tabrizia sets mode: -m
[01:28] <Deagol> u were a bad pvper man
[01:28] <Afgar> Dragons should be so uber oyu need 500 people to kill them!
[01:28] <Deagol> who wasnti
[01:28] <Deagol> a good guild
[01:28] <Deagol> if ure talking about
[01:28] <Deagol> 'gankers'
[01:28] <Deagol> sorry man
[01:28] * Xilanle sets mode: +b Afgar!*@*
[01:29] <Grei-UDL> Epic monsters should be impossible to solo
[01:29] <Kheldon> *nods*
[01:29] <Anemone> Dragons should be raid material imo or at minimum
multi group
[01:29] <Deagol> good guilds roll together and have 10 on 10 or so fights
[01:29] <Art-Werks-LOV> guild structure is needed in a way that
leadership can be seen/seperated in guildchat
[01:29] <Birwyn> Should have a good group to take on some of the
stronger monsters, and several to take the strongest. maybe add a few
where you need a huge force
[01:29] <Martesk> A player should be ,at the least, to gain experience
on their own. Dungeon crawls, raids, etc, should be left to guilds and
groups.
[01:29] <Celest|pK> yeah im sick of mmorpgs where everyone runs around
killing dragons
[01:29] <billy> i think i should be able to kill anything, provided i
have a windforce and 2 sojs ^_^
[01:29] <Deagol> yeah let the dragons run around and kill everyone
[01:29] <Deagol> 0_o
[01:29] <Quazar> Deagol: that's my point. i would never PvP in a game
where it was based solely on ganking. i have never enjoyed pvp in UO,
and i don't think i will ever enjoy it in any game
[01:29] <Mael> *agree*
[01:29] <Kheldon> Soloers, should be able to do a lot alone. But there
should also be stuff they just can't do alone. Llike clearing out
dungeons or high level mobs all by themselves
[01:29] <Anemone> Soloing a high level creature in most games is
referred to as a loophole, something that should not happen but
occasionally does for bad coding reasons
[01:29] <Shindere-SH> It should be possible to solo, but realistically,
there are some things that one cant do that many can.
[01:29] <Ihad> any and all content should be doable solo. if there's
"groups only" content then there should be similar "solo only" content
offering about the same rewards
[01:29] <Anemone> or balance reasons
[01:30] <Rovman> Legendary beasts and such should require a team effort,
but i hate the idea of having 50 people around throwing fireballs and
bashing with swords at one beast, it just seems so fake.
[01:30] <Para> I think 24ish
[01:30] <Para> definitely not solo
[01:30] <Deagol> you didnt enjoy it because you were not goo at it,
therefore you did not pvp with the people who were good at it and
interested in skill who fought nightly with near even numbers jus tto
see which guild was better on that night
[01:30] <Mael> stop attacking ganking. if it isnt a "duel' then there
are no rules. no such animal as a fair fight, innit to winnit
[01:30] <isopropanol> the idea should be that you can gain xp and
accomplish things solo, but you certainly need backup to take down the
big mobs
[01:30] <naapa> As long as we won't see any mobs that requires like 150+
people to kill I'm fine
[01:30] <Kheldon> Rovman: I'd like to see 50-100ish when it's against
say a sudden -army- that's threatening the lands or something like that.
[01:30] <Anemone> There is a definite trend to "if its possible to solo
you will" and that I have found the greater the solo ability in a game
the less social people are in general
[01:30] <naapa> Most mobs should be able to be taken down by 25 people
[01:30] <Para> what about 149 people?
[01:31] <naapa> 149 is fine, but not 148
[01:31] <Para> ok :)
[01:31] <Kheldon> But I agree, seeing 50 people on one mob seems fake
[01:31] <Quazar> i think one should be able to solo his level as high as
he want and complete various quests by himself. but i believe the
difficult monsters and quests should require a group effort.
[01:31] <Grei-UDL> Soloing should have its benefits too though. I think
everyone has seen that questing engines are pathetic. I think the best
rewards to come from soloing should be from exploration. In fact, I've
always felt exploration to be a MAJOR factor in non pvp entertainment.
[01:31] <billy> 148 is bad
[01:31] <Ashlar> Top end PvE content shouldn't dictate the use of more
then about 20-30 people at a time. Nor should the use of groups be
needed to reach top level. Other then that soloers always find a way to
make do.
[01:31] <Deagol> i think 20-30 peopl is rediculous
[01:31] <Deagol> i mea
[01:31] <Deagol> n
[01:31] <Deagol> im not a EQ kid
[01:31] <Anemone> I guarantee you if you set the limit at say 50 to kill
a mob you will see 150 in guilds killing things
[01:31] <Deagol> so mabe im just not used to the retardation
[01:31] <Deagol> but monsters tat take 50 ppl to kill? get real
[01:31] <Anemone> Its practically human nature to take high rewards
easily if you can
[01:32] <Deagol> how about 10 tops?
[01:32] <Grei-UDL> Deagol... monsters in general arent real. lol
[01:32] <Killaken> well gl you guys with WoW ill see you guys in L2 when
you get tired of it
[01:32] <Anemone> So be ready for 100 people showing up at a dungeon
[01:32] <Anemone> It will happen
[01:32] <Deagol> its a cliche
[01:32] <Deagol> im not being lieral
[01:32] <Martesk> I don't believe there should be "benefits" per se for
soloing. You are already basically controlling all factors (which you
can't do in a group). And thus minimal risk.
[01:32] <Killaken> well gl you guys with WoW ill see you guys in L2
when you get tired of it
[01:32] <Killaken> lol
[01:32] <isopropanol> well said Grei, and also while soloing you get to
go at your own pace
[01:32] <Deagol> hows l2 coming along
[01:32] <Quazar> AnarchyAo: what the hell did that have to do with
anything?
[01:32] <Anemone> However you "should" be able to solo to advance
[01:32] <Anemone> All classes or none
[01:32] <Martesk> Yes.
[01:33] <Deagol> let me get to the highest lvl soloing
[01:33] <Deagol> if i have to round up 40 ppl
[01:33] <Deagol> to gaina level
[01:33] * Xarain[EQ] has joined #worldofwarcraft
[01:33] <Deagol> im gonna log off
[01:33] <Anemone> I don't like hearing "my class stinks because I can
never solo" and losing the good players in that class
[01:33] <Deagol> i dont have 10 hrs
[01:33] <Deagol> a day to play
[01:33] <Deagol> here im spending 8 of them
[01:33] <Anemone> I might :)
[01:33] <Deagol> getting a group together
[01:33] <Deagol> where*
[01:33] <Anemone> ah
[01:33] <naapa> I like the way Diablo 2 was one, soloing should be fast,
but more people=better exp
[01:33] <Kheldon> Deagol: One should be able to reach the ihgh level by
themselves, though imo it should be hard. But that doesn't mean they
should be able to take out any mob on their own
[01:33] <Anemone> Yer right
[01:33] <Anemone> If it takes 8 hrs to form a group thats bad
[01:34] <Shindere-SH> It should be possible to level and play solo, but
it should be easier if you party-- partying should be encouraged in
other words.
[01:34] <Anemone> May I say there NEEDS to be group forming tools in a game
[01:34] <Shindere-SH> If it weren't important to party, you should play
a single player RPG.
[01:34] <Anemone> that is a critical feature
[01:34] <Art-Werks-LOV> wow is going to be more quest based, am i
correct. That being said uber quests that present good rewards should
not be soloable... but general xp for any level should be able to be
obtained solo
[01:34] <Grei-UDL> In a mmorpg i used to play called Clan Lord, you
could log out in a library and gain some skill points while you were
away. Not nearly as many as actively playing, but it was still nice.
[01:34] * Aset has joined #worldofwarcraft
[01:34] <Stahl> are you all talking together, or stating different
things already confirmed, or mirroring your thoughts?
[01:34] <Martesk> "Elite" quest are for groups from what I understand.
Normally questing can generally be done solo in the first place.
[01:35] <Anemone> Crafting for xp is already going to have people
writing scripts - I think
[01:35] <Deagol> like honestly, some people go to school and have real
lives and dont have time to put 30 ppl together so they can kill
monsters. they wanna get on, level with a group or without one, and log
out so they can get to bed and get to work. you gotta have that in a
agame or people aret gnna wanna play (except pure addicts who do nothing
but play mmorpgs)
[01:35] <Shindere-SH> it should be possible to do stuff solo, but
partying should have perks, more xp split (60% xp for a group of 4 for
example), and you can take down higher monsters... I would just play
morrowind if I didnt care about partying and wanted to play by myself.
[01:35] * wack` has left #worldofwarcraft
[01:35] <Shindere-SH> Deagol, a party is like 4 people, not 30-- a raid
is 30.
[01:35] <Shindere-SH> Don't know what games you play where a casual
party requires like 30ish
[01:36] <Deagol> wel i dont know wtf a raid is, i never played EQ...ive
played UO AC SB
[01:36] <Grei-UDL> Also, epic monsters shouldnt be a part of the
leveling process. Killing epics should be for fun and for special gains.
[01:36] <Anemone> I'm typing my thoughts and reading/replying to others
that I read at the same time
[01:36] <Shindere-SH> A raid is a MASSIVE party.
[01:36] <billy> Nice
[01:36] <Deagol> but even if i donthave time to get 4 ppl together i
should have some option for soloing
[01:36] <Shindere-SH> well a raid group :-0
[01:36] <Deagol> say i only have
[01:36] <Deagol> 45 mins
[01:36] <Deagol> toplay
[01:36] <Anemone> I agree Deagol
[01:36] <Deagol> or 30
[01:36] <Shindere-SH> If you only have 30-45mins, then you shouldnt be
taking on monsters that require 45 people anyways; but those monsters
SHOULD exist for those who do have time.
[01:36] <Deagol> why should i have to set aside 3h to play to get
anythign done
[01:37] <Anemone> There probably will be a lower limit though at which
it may not be worth it to log on
[01:37] <Quazar> Deagol: most games aren't like UO. most games take 30
minutes just to get from town to the place you're going to fight.
[01:37] <Para> I think the instanced raids can be paused per se
[01:37] <Shindere-SH> You shouldnt, but you just cant get the same stuff
done that a party could.
[01:37] <isopropanol> i dont think you should get more xp for killing
something "simply" because you're in a group tho
[01:37] <Anemone> I just know, that raids and raiding teams form, and if
there is nothing for them to do, then eventually, and not long, they
leave the game
[01:37] <Deagol> yeah and tats not right....why the hel should i have to
set asie 3 hours t play in which 2 of them im waling or doing nothing?
i dont think blizzard wants a beat game like tat
[01:37] * FB|ded has joined #worldofwarcraft
[01:37] <Shindere-SH> Iso, its a fact- 3 people stabbing at once can
kill faster
[01:37] <Deagol> where 75%of ur time is spent doing nothing
[01:37] <Shindere-SH> you useually get LESS xp, about 60% of total xp
youd get soloing it
[01:37] <Para> you won't have to do that
[01:38] <Shindere-SH> but you can kill faster so it amounts to more xp
[01:38] <tabrizia> guys 2 minute warning on this question
[01:38] <Para> there will be plenty of other things to do
[01:38] <isopropanol> the concept of an mmo is to play with a group, but
being able to solo is very nice
[01:38] <Anemone> If you don't increase the xp, then you reduce the
chance that people will gropu
[01:38] <Anemone> that is bad for the socialness of the game
[01:38] <isopropanol> Shindere-SH, gotcha, i tought someone was saying
you should get more
[01:38] <Shindere-SH> Thats right, Iso-- nice to know you dont HAVE to
have others to play; but there should be advantages to forming groups
(tackling harder monsters, being able to get more xp (even with the %
hit, more people kill faster))
[01:39] <Shindere-SH> nah, you always wind up getting more though
[01:39] <Shindere-SH> thats just how it evens out
[01:39] <Anemone> Its fun to solo and there are lots of benefits to it.
You don't have to give it tons of perks, if people can do it, they will
gravitate to self reliant playing.
[01:39] <Grei-UDL> perhaps the xp system should reward variety. If you
solo too much, the xp for soloing drops, and if you group too much than
the xp for grouping drops. Just a thought.
[01:39] <Deagol> thats what i mean, there should be solo stuff to do
causea lot of the time i only have 30 mins to play or 1 hour. with many
other mmorpgs its not even an option to log in for that little amount of
time cause you'l spend it getting a group together, goin to the xp spot,
and once you finally start getting somthing going its time to log.
totally screws people who arent losers who play mmorpgs 12h a day
[01:39] <Shindere-SH> you also have to share loot-- so there should be
other perks to partying that even it out if we were worrying about
"fairness"
[01:39] <Anemone> True Sind
[01:39] <Anemone> Shind
[01:39] <Shindere-SH> Deagol, try not to bash others to make your points.
[01:39] <Shindere-SH> (i.e. "Losers who play a lot"
[01:39] <Shindere-SH> )
[01:40] <billy> He's jealous.
[01:40] * tabrizia sets mode: +m
[01:40] <tabrizia> Okay guys time for the next question :)
[01:40] <tabrizia> If an item becomes non-tradable after a player
activates it as their own, and that player is a crafter, should they be
able dismantle the item and salvage it for its raw material?
[01:40] * tabrizia sets mode: -m
[01:40] <Deagol> if ure playing 12h a day ure a loser its true ;<
[01:40] <Shindere-SH> Deagol, this isnt "Deagol Online", a lot of the
content is developed for people who can afford to take time... but a lot
of content is for casual people too.
[01:40] <Afgar> Yes
[01:40] <billy> Yeah, sure.
[01:40] <isopropanol> what does "#worldofwarcraft Cannot send to
channel" mean?
[01:40] <Martesk> Er..sure. Why?
[01:40] <Anemone> Yes Tabrizia
[01:40] <Martesk> Why not even
[01:40] <chardun> keep the channel +m and filter questions thru someone
[01:41] <Mortarion> yep
[01:41] <Art-Werks-LOV> if an item is no longer useable it should be
salvageable but in now way should the return be 1:1... it should be
maybe 50% or even less
[01:41] <Shindere-SH> Salvaging is a good process, lets you recycle
older stuff that you don't use anymore.
[01:41] <Stahl> devs here?
[01:41] <Deagol> if you think someone who plays rpgs 12h a day 7 days a
week hasnt lost at teh game of life ure confused ;x
[01:41] <Anemone> Deagol 12h is not much time to spend gaming imo
[01:41] <Art-Werks-LOV> otehrwise you'll have macro'ers never having to
go get new parts to skill up...
[01:41] <billy> lol
[01:41] * Kheldon agrees with Art
[01:41] <billy> teh game of lief
[01:41] <Anemone> Just that's for weekends :)
[01:41] <tobehz> leiefe.z
[01:41] <Shindere-SH> I never said they didnt have their priorities
straight, deagol-- I am making a point. This game has content for
people who have 30-1hr, and it has content for people who have LOTS of time.
[01:41] <Shindere-SH> it isn't Deagol Online, IOW.
[01:41] <Kheldon> There should be some resources salvageable though,
making less items junk-worthy. :P
[01:42] <Shindere-SH> Its not just for you, its for people of all walks.
[01:42] <Deagol> i didnt say it was
[01:42] <Deagol> im just saying
[01:42] * Uman|LAN has quit IRC (Ping timeout )
[01:42] <Anemone> Salvaging and the related area, hand me down items
that you no longer need are good for a game imo
[01:42] <Art-Werks-LOV> if it was possible... anything salvaged should
have some sort of flag or prefix to the name. so that xp cant be
gained back from it when used.
[01:42] <Deagol> all of the other rpgs (minus UO) are liek that
[01:42] <Deagol> and im saying
[01:42] <Deagol> this wone shouldnt cater only to people
[01:42] <Deagol> who have lost at the game of life
[01:42] <Art-Werks-LOV> then you could up the % salvaged
[01:42] <naapa> maybe you should just play UO
[01:42] * Mael has left #worldofwarcraft
[01:42] <Shindere-SH> it doesn't deagol-- it has content for those with
little time, and those with lots of time.
[01:42] <billy> i have lost at the game of life :(
[01:42] <Deagol> cool
[01:42] <Deagol> thats good then
[01:42] <Deagol> they are on the right track
[01:42] <Shindere-SH> To answer your question, it doesn't completely
cater to either group, rather to both.
[01:42] <Anemone> You've made the point Deagol
[01:42] <Deagol> hopefully thy can
[01:42] <Deagol> keep that balance
[01:43] <Shindere-SH> high end content will obviously take time though
Deagol, otherwise it wouldnt be high end, it would be common.
[01:43] * WhiTey-FU has joined #worldofwarcraft
[01:43] <Deagol> so i cant get passed say.. lvl 35/50 becaue i cant set
aside 5h a day to play?
[01:43] <Anemone> If there is no more on the ? can we have the next one?
[01:43] <Deagol> thats redic
[01:43] <Shindere-SH> no, you can get past those levels.
[01:43] <Deagol> liek obviously it should
[01:43] <Deagol> go sower
[01:43] <billy> if you don't have the time, you're not going to be
successful as those who do
[01:43] <Deagol> slower*
[01:43] <billy> get over it, deal with it, make some time
[01:44] <Shindere-SH> I am saying ITEMS.
[01:44] <Deagol> but in a lot of games
[01:44] <billy> in ALL GAMES
[01:44] <Deagol> u come to a screaching halt
[01:44] <tabrizia> okay guys 2 minute warning
[01:44] <tabrizia> then moving on
[01:44] <billy> people with more time will be more successful
[01:44] <Shindere-SH> Godly stuff, godly levels, etc. wouldnt be godly
if they were attainable by anyone easily.
[01:44] <billy> that's how it is, deal with it
[01:44] <Deagol> yeah but the curve
[01:44] <Deagol> can be
[01:44] <Deagol> harp
[01:44] <Deagol> sharp or dull
[01:44] <Kaltren> Let's keep the discussion on-topic, please.
[01:44] <Maus|UT2k4> so uhh
[01:44] * Maus|UT2k4 is now known as Maus
[01:44] <Deagol> like time can make you 5x more pwrful, or 1.5x
[01:44] <Maus> is it over and done with?
[01:44] <billy> nah
[01:44] <Maus> dang, lol
[01:45] <Mortarion> imo there should be a win button for wow
[01:45] <billy> you have won the internet
[01:45] <Martesk> Heh
[01:45] <Mortarion> like insta lifedrain for bonedancers on DAOC
[01:45] <tabrizia> okay and onto the next question
[01:45] <tabrizia> Currently the real time/gametime is set to 0, meaning
24 hours in game is 24 hours in real life. Blizzard has said that this
is something they might change buring beta. What do you feel about
having a RL speed on ingame time? What are the pros and cons and which
would you prefer?

[01:45] <Shindere-SH> This is ridiculous-- it shouldnt go on real world time
[01:46] <Anemone> I'd like it to be faster than real
[01:46] * Bizcut has joined #worldofwarcraft
[01:46] <Mortarion> depends
[01:46] <Shindere-SH> certain people can only play on certain times of
the day, crazy to force them to only see certain sides of the day.
[01:46] <Mortarion> if there are day\night only quests
[01:46] <Shindere-SH> a 23 hour clock would work for me, it would be
every changing every day.
[01:46] <isopropanol> i think the day cycle should be faster
[01:46] <Anemone> There are bound to be creatures/harvests that can only
be done at a certain time of day
[01:46] <Mortarion> that would be very wierd
[01:46] <Anemone> Binding that to RL would be bad imo
[01:46] <Ashlar> Seems like a heavy handed way to restrict content from
people with a, you know, real life schedule.
[01:46] <Mortarion> yes Anemone I agree
[01:46] <isopropanol> 3,4,6, or 8 hours (something divisible into 24)
[01:46] <Deagol> there should be a timer that only lets you play 5h per
day max, and if u go over you stop gaining xp when u kill stuff so that
people who suck at life can have a virtual mommy to get them off the cpu
and perhaps off welfare. furthermore a little peon orc should follow u
around giving u rl insults once u hit 8h
[01:46] <Anemone> People would lose RL jobs over it
[01:46] <Shindere-SH> A system like 23 or 25 hour clock would work, then
the day would slightly shift and I could see different aspects of the
game over time.
[01:46] <Birwyn> I like the daoc 1 hour = 1 game day. that way I can
deal with day/night quests and mob spawns. also makes pvp fun fighting
at night
[01:46] <Kheldon> It shouldn't be on real time, imo. Many people play on
regular hours. Only being able to see one time period of the game must
be sooo boring :/
[01:46] <billy> A little faster, maybe Shin
[01:46] <Aravil|Baalur> I think a 4:1 ratio would work
[01:47] <Isenbright> I'd rather see a 4:1 ratio idd
[01:47] <Shindere-SH> well to keep with reality, billy
[01:47] <billy> 20 hour clock would kill monotony
[01:47] <Shindere-SH> a 7 hour clock would work nice
[01:47] <Shindere-SH> something uneven
[01:47] <isopropanol> i agree with 4:1
[01:47] <Martesk> It's great. It keeps time ingame from passing too
quietly. *Thousands* of years have passed on older EQ servers. It lets
them keep the passage of time in hand. Like..in three months..the
Scourage may take an offensive against Azeroth, etc.
[01:47] <Shindere-SH> that way the day cycles change
[01:47] * Vergil has joined #worldofwarcraft
[01:47] <Anemone> 4:1 sounds ok
[01:47] <Anemone> 6:1 might work imo
[01:47] <Aravil|Baalur> aye I agree with Shindere here actually
[01:47] <Aravil|Baalur> an uneven number
[01:47] <Shindere-SH> even on a 4:1 you still see same stuff every day
you log on
[01:47] <Martesk> Quietly? quickly that is
[01:47] <Rovman> I think its a bad idea, while i work shifts im usually
able to come on for a bit during the day, and during the night. But i
can see how it would suck for a 9 till 5 worker only getting on at night
time
[01:47] <Shindere-SH> an OFFBEAT time would work nice
[01:47] * Vergil is now known as Vergil-SH
[01:47] <Shindere-SH> like 5 hours, or 7 hours
[01:47] <Shindere-SH> that way the day cycles shift if you only have
limited time on per day
[01:47] <Shindere-SH> even a 13 hour day, just some odd number that
doesnt go into 24.
[01:48] <isopropanol> i think an offbeat time would be too screwy tho
[01:48] <Vergil-SH> hi all
[01:48] <Anemone> You know if it was a nice set amt of hours you could
highten the suspense of an in game big event by changing time
[01:48] <Anemone> However
[01:48] <Shindere-SH> no it wouldn't, you just wouldn't know what day
time it was, iso.
[01:48] <Shindere-SH> until you get in game
[01:48] <isopropanol> it might work great, or it might confuse people
[01:48] <Shindere-SH> People aren't confused by daytimes in any MMO
[01:48] <Shindere-SH> they log in and see what time it is
[01:48] <Shindere-SH> :-)
[01:48] <Anemone> Realize that any drop/monster/creature/event which has
any set time at all will be out on the web or maximized by guilds
[01:48] <Anemone> Be ready for that or try to avoid it
[01:48] * raichu has left #worldofwarcraft
[01:48] <isopropanol> true enough
[01:48] <Art-Werks-LOV> thats when PVP comes into play Anemone
[01:48] <DevilHimself> Like Doom in UO
[01:49] <Anemone> :)
[01:49] <tabrizia> Okay guys 2 minute warning on this question :)
[01:49] <Anemone> indeed Art
[01:49] <Art-Werks-LOV> GTFO or share the spawn
[01:49] <Martesk> From the screenshots, night doesn't look soo bad that
you can't see your hand infront of your face. They said it won't effect
quests/tradeskills. Don't see a big problem.
[01:49] * Xeph[Z] has joined #worldofwarcraft
[01:49] <DevilHimself> people camp the thing,because artis/items spawn
every X amount of hours
[01:49] * |8 has joined #worldofwarcraft
[01:49] <Shindere-SH> A system close to reality would be nice-- but
slightly off, even a 25 hour day or 23 hour day, that way I see
something different... not just playing in dark, or playing in light.
[01:49] * dfor has joined #worldofwarcraft
[01:49] <Anemone> Only issue Art is a big guild will tell you to get lost
[01:49] <billy> still, ONLY playing at one time during the day would be
so very boring...
[01:49] <Shindere-SH> I want to see it all, but I have real life
priorities too :-) (pfft!)
[01:49] <Aravil|Baalur> Anyone know if the seasons will change?
[01:50] <Aravil|Baalur> that would be a very very nice thing
[01:50] <Shindere-SH> they arent supposed to, aravil.
[01:50] <Birwyn> season changes would be awesome
[01:50] <Shindere-SH> :-(
[01:50] <billy> yeah...
[01:50] * tabrizia sets mode: +m
[01:50] <tabrizia> okay guys time for the next question
[01:50] <tabrizia> Even though it's known that Horde/Alliance
interaction in the sense of cooperation will be minimal, if this wasn't
the case..how would you prefer the faction system to be handled? A
complex system that allows for treachery, and deception or compassion or a more simpler, black and white scene without any or minimal grey areas?
[01:50] <Shindere-SH> I think HvA works well....
[01:50] <Birwyn> daoc style imho. can't talk with them, can only kill em
[01:50] <Rovman> cya all, ill be back in 30 mins - 1 hour or somthing
(maybe).
[01:51] <Anemone> The border between in game treachery and out of game
cheating is so very, very thin
[01:51] <Shindere-SH> it would RUIN any potential storyline they could
have if people could fight against their own.
[01:51] <Aravil|Baalur> I think traitors should be possible :) But you'd
have to think of a way to make them uncommon, ifyou get my drift
[01:51] <Martesk> Grey areas..intrigue and morality on the large scale
are lacking from WarCraft.
[01:51] <|8> I think one of the things that drove people from daoc
shards to the pvp shards was the inability to communicate with their enemies
[01:51] <billy> There definitely needs to be room for griefing.
[01:51] <Kheldon> Aravil: Season's wont change according to KAtricia
[01:51] <Shindere-SH> It would be fun, but I would lose out on a great
storyline where its HvA.
[01:51] <Aravil|Baalur> That's sad Kheldon... =/
[01:51] <isopropanol> i agree fully shindere
[01:51] <billy> Pra ka pra.
[01:51] <qatw3rk> but it's not a pvp game so it's a moot point
[01:51] <Bizcut> says who?
[01:51] <billy> It's always a pvp game, to some...
[01:51] <Shindere-SH> It has PvP, but it is not purely PvP
[01:52] <billy> It'll be a pvp game to me, I know that
[01:52] <Shindere-SH> I will PvP to some degree, but won't focus on it.
[01:52] <|8> that's not really the focus of the question, but it's
fairly obvious that it's more eq than uo, if you know what I mean
[01:52] <billy> we don't
[01:52] <Birwyn> |8, I don't play on mordred because it would suck to be
ganked by 60 people then get mocked until I release :/
[01:52] <DevilHimself> that's the nature of the market, though
[01:52] <Anemone> I tend to think a shade of gray bears more resemblance
to real life, but a true black and white, you are hero or villain is
much more in the line of heroic epics
[01:52] <DevilHimself> the "carebears" are the ones that pay the bills,
not the PvPers
[01:52] <Anemone> And I think in mmorpg's its more fun to be heroic
[01:52] <Aravil|Baalur> I think at least there should be safehavens
[01:53] <dfor> |8 they can cominicate with their enemys on irc..
[01:53] <|8> and forums
[01:53] <Shindere-SH> I agree, Anemone.
[01:53] <DevilHimself> but they still will have some attraction for the
pvpers, it just will no longer be the main focus
[01:53] <Vergil-SH> Me too
[01:53] <Shindere-SH> They said PvP zones are marked CLEARLY.
[01:53] <|8> which leads to irc warriorship, which is mostly unsatisfying
[01:53] <tabrizia> 2 minute warning on this question as well :)
[01:53] <Aravil|Baalur> that's a good idea, marked zones. DAoC is
working extremely well on the PvP part, gotta admit that
[01:53] * Rajah-_-ZzZz has left #worldofwarcraft
[01:53] <Anemone> I do like the idea of maybe communicating
[01:53] <dfor> lol Shindere-SH by all the dead bodys? and all the
noobs sitting outside ?
[01:53] <Aravil|Baalur> it's kept me interested for like 3 years
[01:54] <billy> pvp adds to the danger of a game, it's always so much
more suspenseful when you know that that guy right over there would be
beating you down any second, or he might be a nice guy
[01:54] <|8> the biggest problem with daoc-type pvp is players becoming
bored or feeling nothing they do matters
[01:54] <Anemone> That does tend to invite "false side info givers" too
though which is bad
[01:54] <Vergil-SH> lmao
[01:54] * Bizcut has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer )
[01:54] <Maus> bahaha bok
[01:54] <billy> brings a real life aspect into it that i enjoy
[01:54] <Anemone> so hard to choose on that one
[01:54] <Shindere-SH> Back to question-- Blizzard has always had such
rich stories with their games. It would be HORRIBLE to lose out on the
potential story of WoW if people could turn on their own. I think the
HvA purely tends to lead to an evolving storyline.
[01:54] <Deagol> so anyway there should be a timer build into the gmae
after uve played 5h in a day u cant gain xp off monsters anymore, and
after 8h a little peon starts following u around givng u rl insults
until u log
[01:54] <Maus> omg man thats nasty
[01:54] * deathstar has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer )
[01:54] <Anemone> I've gotten comfortable with the H vs A system
[01:54] <Shindere-SH> Deagol, thats ridiculous.
[01:54] <Anemone> and 2 sides is better than 3
[01:54] <|8> agreed
[01:54] <Kheldon> I'd prefer the faction system to be more complex..to
be able to include traitors and the like. With allowing players the
option of deciding on their own and then dealing with the consequences;
just becayse you're a happy human that doesn't hate Orcs doesn't mean
all Orcs have to love you.
[01:54] <Shindere-SH> Don't punish those who can devote more time than
you can.
[01:54] <Birwyn> maybe follow doac and do pvp server, normal server and
carebear server
[01:55] <|8> no albernia or hibgard
[01:55] <Waador> Yes, Shindere. Because, you know, no orcs have *ever*
turned on their orc brethren, for personal gain. *ever.*
[01:55] <Martesk> I agree Shin. It's just not WarCraft anymore if orcs
and humans aren't kicking each other in the face anymore.
[01:55] <Deagol> nah ppl need virtual mommies so they dont play all day
[01:55] <Shindere-SH> Shaddup waador :-)
[01:55] <Waador> <3
[01:55] <Deagol> yes ther emust be
[01:55] <Shindere-SH> It leads to a better story
[01:55] <Deagol> much huan v orc pvp
[01:55] <billy> lol
[01:55] <tabrizia> Okay guys and now for our last question of the evening:
[01:55] <tabrizia> We have been told that there will be totally new WoW
boards available outside Battle.net that would require WoW accounts to
post on. What do you think about that? Would you prefer to have them on
Battle.net as they are now? We were also told that game accounts and
forum accounts would be connected to discourage people from causing
trouble on either, what's your thoughts on that? Are you positive
towards the idea or opposed to it? How strict
[01:55] * tabrizia sets mode: -m
[01:55] <Shindere-SH> Deagol, again-- not Deagol Online-- it doesn't
revolve around YOUR play schedule.
[01:55] <Vergil-SH> will there be quests for an itme and when you return
the npc tries to kill you
[01:55] <Shindere-SH> :-)
[01:55] <Deagol> it does man
[01:55] <billy> New boards = big plus
[01:55] <Deagol> it does
[01:56] <Martesk> Anything to get away from B.net.
[01:56] <Anemone> I would EXPECT to have forums where only WoW
subscribers can voice
[01:56] <Kheldon> I think it's great. And they should be as strict as
they need to be to keep thing clean.
[01:56] <Birwyn> I am worrried about the being banned on boards -> being
banned from game :/
[01:56] <Deagol> cause ppl are lost in life they get immersed in rpgs
andplay 12h a day wtf is the point
[01:56] <isopropanol> Deagol, that's their RL choice, they're paying
customers
[01:56] <Anemone> If you don't play stfu (sorry for the language)
[01:56] <Deagol> maybe if someone takes a stad and is like get real man
get off
[01:56] <naapa> Yes that sounds like a good idea - forum account being
connected to your game account
[01:56] <Lyle> Thug thug!!!
[01:56] <Shindere-SH> I think it would be nice if WoW boards would be
implemented inside WoW, i.e. I can click a tab, and while still in game,
see what is posted.
[01:56] <Deagol> u can play but ur not gettig xp
[01:56] <Deagol> u can still
[01:56] <Kheldon> Primary reason for people to NOT get WoW is their
community and Blizzard really needs to show that they -can- keep control
[01:56] <Deagol> run around
[01:56] <Deagol> tlk to ppl
[01:56] <Shindere-SH> I also think its vital that peoples names are
linked to their accounts so people don't cause problems
[01:57] <Deagol> only after 8h will the insulting orc flag on u
[01:57] <Anemone> There will be plenty of boards around the web to air
views if you don't have an account
[01:57] <billy> Shindere, they'd already be linked to their CD-Keys
[01:57] <naapa> Deagol go exp some in real life, you could use some
+maturity
[01:57] <billy> what's the point?
[01:57] <Anemone> Yes Sind
[01:57] <Deagol> if ure
[01:57] <billy> You need a key to sign up for the forums account...
[01:57] <Dash\GNC> hey all
[01:57] <Shindere-SH> They would, but it would prevent me from creating
an alt and flaming
[01:57] <Waador> Forum accounts shouldn't be linked to in-game
accounts. That's just an easy way of finding someone's username, and is
blatantly inviting attempts to crack your password.
[01:57] <Art-Werks-LOV> People should be accountable for their
actions... The more the game is able to tie in boards to their ingame
characters.. the less they'll make an a$$ of themselves
[01:57] <Deagol> pro 12h a day playig a online video gameu need maturity
[01:57] <Deagol> man
[01:57] * Dash\GNC is now known as Dash
[01:57] <billy> Waador makes an excellent point.
[01:57] <Shindere-SH> If I can just create an alt and flame, it is of no
consequence unless they ban my acct key
[01:57] <billy> Usernames must be kept private, they have the keys anyway.
[01:58] <Kheldon> billy: The WoW forum accounts will be linked to the
WoW game account, not just the cd.key
[01:58] <Anemone> In 5 years I've never had a pw hacked
[01:58] <DevilHimself> SWG does this, and I haven't heard much of anyone
being h4x3d!
[01:58] <Deagol> lets
[01:58] <Shindere-SH> Same, Anemone.
[01:58] <Anemone> Nor have I been misrepresented "much" :)
[01:58] <|8> linking forum accounts to in-game accounts is useful in
some ways (when people use forums for illegal purposes) but please be
careful about how forum moderation transfers over to in-game moderation
[01:58] <Vergil-SH> ty
[01:58] <Kheldon> And as Katricia said, if you keep breaking the rules
in the forums, your account suffers the consequences as well
[01:58] <billy> Kheldon: What about Waador's point? Do you want to give
people a list of usernames to try to crack?
[01:58] <Kheldon> game account that is
[01:58] <Martesk> Forums using your username aren't a problem. People
who fall for scams are the problem.
[01:58] <naapa> Yeah
[01:58] <billy> What's the point of linking accounts when you already
linked the keys?
[01:58] <Kheldon> The forum account doesn't have to show cc account names
[01:59] <Kheldon> As KAt said, you get to pick which one of your chars
to show in the forums
[01:59] <DevilHimself> You can link the ingame account to the boards by
allowing people to choose a diff user name for use ON the boards.
[01:59] <tabrizia> actually if it is done like SOny does their boards
then your posting name is not your username
[01:59] <Kheldon> most likely you get to pick the name as well
[01:59] <billy> Alright.
[01:59] * Flech has left #worldofwarcraft
[01:59] <DevilHimself> and blizzard can still keep people in check
[01:59] <Anemone> You know, they can always try linked and if they need
more input expand one area into an open posting area
[01:59] <tabrizia> but it is normally one of your character's names
[01:59] <|8> I understand the concept behind this but at risk of being
blasphemous, if the official boards are stratics-esque in moderation I
would most likely just not participate in the official boards at all for
risk of losing my account, and I know others feel the same
[01:59] <Waador> Well, to be fair, the majority of the gaming population
isn't going to use the forums anyway.
[02:00] <Maus> or you could just not use the forums
[02:00] <Maus> like a clever person
[02:00] <DevilHimself> w/o moderation, they would be the same as b.net
forums
[02:00] <|8> ^^ that's what I said :D
[02:00] <Waador> Except to check if the 1.10 patch is out every week,
for two years.
[02:00] <Anemone> I say what I need to say, with respect but I don't
hold it back much and if ban comes then it comes
[02:00] <billy> HAHAHAHAH
[02:00] <Anemone> I have never, however, been banned, ever.
[02:00] <Maus> lies =/
[02:00] <Maus> gods just killed a kitten now
[02:00] <Anemone> And once gave the VP of Verant a phone call to make my pt
[02:00] <Kheldon> Means you don't break the rules even when you speak
your mind Anemone (either that or the system was REALLY lax? ;P)
[02:00] <Shindere-SH> Anemone, rules keep people in line-- many more
people would act out (like they do on bnet forums) in other places if
rules didnt exist.
[02:01] <Waador> I don't think anybody should be banned from *viewing*
the forums.
[02:01] <Anemone> lol Khel
[02:01] <Waador> If you buy the game, you have a right to read
information pertaining to it.
[02:01] <Martesk> Given the choice of having "the Vault" become the
offcial boards like it has some other games..I'll Blizzard have their
chance and moderating.
[02:01] <DevilHimself> Waador, when you buy a game or sign up for a
board , you also agree to a ToS...
[02:01] <Anemone> Thank you Tabrizia for your expert methods and your
patience with us :)
[02:01] <isopropanol> moderation is necessary when people have any form
on anonymity
[02:01] <DevilHimself> And sa such, you are responsible for not breaking
that ToS.
[02:01] <DevilHimself> errr, as
[02:01] <Waador> Find me a user who reads the ToS.
[02:01] <tabrizia> okay guys 2 minutes and I will be modding again for a
minute :)
[02:02] * Kaltren raises his hand.
[02:02] * tabrizia raises her hand
[02:02] <Shindere-SH> When people are completely anonymous, i.e. they
have no chance of gettin in trouble, they will act however they want
even if there are rules.
[02:02] <DevilHimself> Regardless if you read it or not, you are still
bound to it simply by signing up.
[02:02] <isopropanol> you're responsible for what it says when you check
the box, whether you read it or not
[02:02] <Anemone> That is incredibly sad and incredibly true Shind
[02:02] <|8> I agree that people who will speak out idiotically and
flame people need to be moderated efficiently, but is it going to come
to the point where anyone who has a viewpoint counter to the moderators,
however presented, is squelched?
[02:02] <Shindere-SH> heh
[02:03] <DevilHimself> Then you need to go to the moderators bosses if
they are being unfair.
[02:03] <Anemone> If you want to have a view, sign up to play
[02:03] <Kheldon> |8, they'll probably be more organized than that
[02:03] <Anemone> Its not that hard
[02:03] <Shindere-SH> People need to be anonymous enough to not get
hacked, but still have enough of them there to where if they do act out
of line, they will be able to be disciplined.
[02:03] <|8> I know that's how all forums start :D but I'm looking at a couple forums in particular that end up that way *cough*
[02:03] <tabrizia> Okay I want to thank everyone that participated
tonight in the chat.
[02:03] <Kheldon> \o/
[02:04] <tabrizia> Thank you all for the great community chat, and feel
free to hang around and chat in a more free form enviorment.
[02:04] <tabrizia> Thanks everyone :)